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Topic: Why Are Modern Pickups Wound So Heavy? |
Chris Johnson
From:
USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2011 2:31 pm |
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This topic has been on my mind for a little while now...
After playing on an old stringmaster a few weeks ago and having somewhat of a sonic orgasm, I wondered why steel guitar pickups have progressively gotten so much hotter over the years. I've noticed on the forum how many love the "old" vintage sound, yet a lot of us are using heavily winded pickups.
The D8 stringmaster I played recently had the biggest, punchiest(guess that's a word), and clearest sound I have ever heard on steel guitar. A friend of mine put a truetone winded to stringmaster specs in his dynalap and it wielded similar results. The lightly wound "fender" truetone pickup ran circles around the previous 18.4K truetone. The 18.4K sounded thicker and a little louder but had "stiff" mids and was not generally as punchy and clear. I know the dummy rule of thumb (in many cases) is the more winds= the bigger the sound, the lesser the winds= the thinner and keener the sound, but its not true in this case.
Does anyone know why our pickups got so heavy over the years?
Thanks |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2011 2:43 pm
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Don't know why steel guitar pickups evolved the way they did - maybe it's devolution. I love Fender pickups in general - my favorite are the soapbar Fender 1000 pickups.
"sonic orgasm"  |
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Chris Johnson
From:
USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2011 2:49 pm
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You should've been there 
The soapbars sounded awesome with plenty of body |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2011 5:18 pm Re: Why Are Modern Pickups Wound So Heavy?
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| Chris Johnson wrote: |
Does anyone know why our pickups got so heavy over the years?
Thanks |
My theory on this has been that pickups began to get hotter not for the sake of being hotter, but because over-winding pickups makes them darker, less crispy on top, more mids and thickness to the sound. Being hot was a by-product. And I think the reason that people were after darker pickups was because of the transition from tube amps to transistor amps. Tube amps sound rich and sweet and juicy and rich with thinner, brighter pickups, but transistor amps are much more harsh and unforgiving in the treble. So people grew to adapt pickups to the more popular transistor amps of the '70s and '80s and onward.
Just a theory.
Brad
PS: I've got a '66 Emmons pickup originally wound to 12k that sure sounds amazing thru tube gear. A bit icy and harsh thru transistor amps though. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 19 Aug 2011 5:30 pm
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| I agree with that. I wouldn't play a pickup over 17.5 myself. Too thick after that for me. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2011 9:40 pm
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| I think it's a general consensus that six-string pickups got hotter because it was collectively "agreed" by rock guitarists that preamp tube overdrive was a good thing, so a hotter pickup would start that drive earlier. As far as why pedal steel guitar pickups got to be twice as hot as even that, knowing that PSG players weren't seeking overdrive, the only thing I can guess is that it's designed to produce a still-adequate signal level at the amp, after pushing through two cords and a volume pedal. This might be why the volume and tone knobs disappeared from steels too. Of course Li'l Izzys, active volume pedals, Brad Sarno's Freeloader and Black Box put that one to rest, but you can't ask a dinosaur to unevolve itself - you have to have 'em whacked (I'm told comets work well). |
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Chris Johnson
From:
USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2011 11:07 pm
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Thanks for the replies and ideas,
I've seen discussions on pickup contruction here. I have did searches and all of the older topics regarding vintage vs modern pups were never answered. The discussions usually got off topic, then just died.
David M. and Brad S. have good points. Most electric guitarist started winding hot to drive the preamp and get a somewhat natural overdrive but steel guitarist typically want to be mostly clean with years of headroom (I know I do) but our pickups are closer to 20,000 ohms these days, which will drive a normal tube amp crazy with OD if we push our volume pedals down. My father who is an electric guitarist still finds it hard to believe that steel guitar pups are as hot as they are.
Keep the hypotheses comin'
Thanks |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 20 Aug 2011 4:50 am
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| Quote: |
| Most electric guitarist started winding hot to drive the preamp and get a somewhat natural overdrive but steel guitarist typically want to be mostly clean with years of headroom (I know I do) but our pickups are closer to 20,000 ohms these days, which will drive a normal tube amp crazy with OD if we push our volume pedals down. |
Italices mine -
1. Many if not most pedal steel players use a solid-state pedal steel amp designed to handle this without overdriving the input section (or the output section, for that matter).
2. As you'll read in some of those references, it is standard for many pedal steel players to never push the volume pedal all the way down except as the envelope of a note decays. Thus the implied reasoning would be to have a hotter signal to give more signal to to milk volume pedal technique to sustain the note.
I'm not sure that these are cause-and-effect 'reasons' why pickups were wound hotter, but they may be - or they may be consequences of pickups being more hotly wound for other reasons. For example, another possibility is that modern pedal steel players actually want a thicker tone than was prevalent using lighter-wound pickups. Other factors being the same, more windings tends to reduce the Q-factor of the coil, which broadens the resonant peak and lead to a more balanced and less peaky sound. Depending on the frequency-center of the main resonant frequency, this may have different consequences.
My overall take is that many steel players simply prefer the sound of these hotly wound pickups in the context of whatever rig they have set up. The entire system needs to be considered as a whole, the pickup is just one part of it. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2011 8:44 am
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I think you're hinting at another good reason why the darker, more midrangy, thus hotter pickups have become the norm; the role of steel in more modern country has become a more blended, less "up-front" instrument in the overall mix. Steel kickoffs and rides used to be clear as day, the hook of the song kind of song components where today it's more blended in, kind of like organ or strings.
Perhaps people got burned out on the bright, twangy, overtly "country" sound of the classic pedal steel tone. (not me! I still listen to that stuff all the time)
It's changed a lot since Together Again...
Brad |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 20 Aug 2011 11:53 am
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| Quote: |
| It's changed a lot since Together Again... |
Indeed it has, Brad. I agree that the evolving role of steel guitar may well be part of this move. In one band I was in a few years back, I found myself frequently turning the treble down and using a Leslie sim for backup right before I left - there were times when that just made musical sense, in terms of adding textures to the sound. After I left, they ultimately hired a B3 player.
I have routinely worked with a B3 player the last 10 years. In those situations, it is usually most appropriate to stay out of that lower midrange zone - so much so that I rarely can go to the lower strings on a universal 12-string and an old-school tonal presence is more or less expected.
I never get burned-out on classic old-school pedal steel. Doubt I ever will. |
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Chris Johnson
From:
USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2011 9:55 pm
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Hey guys for the input
Dave M:
| Quote: |
| our pickups are closer to 20,000 ohms these days, which will drive a normal tube amp crazy with OD if we push our volume pedals down |
By pedal down I meant for a solo situation (without mic). After a second or two, the amp just starts driving due to all the signal going into the input making it basically impractical to play a tube amp at band live levels without changing out tubes for lower gain like 12ay7's or biasing lower etc. Input 2 usually lacks the definition/presence of the 1st input. All I use now are SS amps. It's apparent that very high wounded pups such as the modern, alienate steelers from effectively using many different brands or variations of great tube amps out there due to the lack of a decent clean sound at stage volumes.
I agree with the clever point that the twangy twang won't fit in alot of whats coming out of Nville these days but it also had to get to that point. Look at the twanging teles. The aimed tone hasn't changed too much for years in the industry apart from the more present overdrive in more recent years.
But then again, not all lightly winded pups were too twangy to begin with...
Keep the ideas coming |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 22 Aug 2011 12:24 am
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One reason steel guitar pickups overdrive inputs on some tube amps is that they are physically larger than 6 st pickups. With the same number of windings as a guitar pickup you get a similar tone but a higher resistance.
Another thing about old pickups sounding fuller is the size of the wire used. There is plenty of room in an old Bigsby pickup for a thick copper wire. This gives them a very different inductance/resistance ratio.
_________________
Bob |
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Chris Johnson
From:
USA
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Posted 22 Aug 2011 2:58 am
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Thanks Bob H.
Good point Mr. Hoffnar. Different gauge wire also has to do with the overall sound. There were some pickups under 10k that were really "boomey" and full sounding without the clarity loss I find as pups get heavier.
Another thought: The tone control on the old fenders were also a big factor in keeping the sound from being overly bright or having excessive presence in which pedal steels lack. Backing off the tone pot a little on a stringmaster can really warm up the sound a lot. It could be the difference between peeling paint and sounding balanced depending on your amps settings.
After doing some research, I found this post on the old forum by Brad Sarno that asked some similar questions.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/002913.html |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 22 Aug 2011 9:27 am
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Not to confuse the concept, but not all early pickups were wound "lightly".
Many of the old shobud pickups were wound--with the old style wire---from 18K-24K. My '63 fingertip was wound at 20.5K Harry Jackson just rewound them to 20.5, and they sound killer in my 'tip.
I measure everyone of the shobud projects that come to my shop, and I rarely get old original pickups less than 18K. I know from the very early '60's, most pickups were wound in the 20K neighborhood and coiltap around 11K-13K. With today's modern wire available, 17.5 K maintains that old shobud tone of yesteryear. Trutones are the closest pickup that maintains that old shobud tone in an old shobud. JMHO
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 22 Aug 2011 12:15 pm
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| Quote: |
| ... After a second or two, the amp just starts driving due to all the signal going into the input making it basically impractical to play a tube amp at band live levels without changing out tubes for lower gain like 12ay7's or biasing lower etc. Input 2 usually lacks the definition/presence of the 1st input. ... |
I put 5751 or 12AY7 in the first preamp gain stage of my old Fender amps - the reason Input 2 lacks the presence is that the input impedance is much lower than the 1 MegOhm impedance of Input 1.
But quite a few pedal steel players I see essentially never floor the volume pedal except as the envelope of the note is decaying, so they just don't run into this problem. I'll admit that for clean country playing, I tend to keep the volume pedal pretty well backed off in this same way, although with a solid-state amp or using the 5751/12AY7, I can push it if I need to. But this general approach is one of the things that gives rise to the desire for extra power in a pedal steel amp.
My '73 Sho Bud 6139 had a split-coil pickup. Full-bore was around 14-15KOhm or so, the tapped coil was around 8-10K. Of course, Bob H. is right that the pickup size affects this. I assume it would be reasonable to expect a comparable 12-string pickup to have a higher DC resistance. The width (along the string) of the pickup also sets the magnetic sensing window of the pickup. Those old Sho Bud pickups (let's say early 70s) were narrower than, let's say, an old Emmons pickup.
| Quote: |
| Another thing about old pickups sounding fuller is the size of the wire used. There is plenty of room in an old Bigsby pickup for a thick copper wire. This gives them a very different inductance/resistance ratio. |
Absolutely. The issues are inductance, capacitance, resistance, and the geometry of the magnetic field around the strings. Thicker wire means larger coil size for the same number of winds, but lower resistance per wind. I think that's why some of those nice old pickups had a full sound but still with a lot of clarity. Another good example is the early Charlie Christian pickup made by Gibson around 36-38, wound with 38 Gauge wire for a DC resistance between 2-3 KOhm. |
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Lee Jeffriess
From:
Vallejo California
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Posted 23 Aug 2011 7:27 pm
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Dave the Bigsby is nearly the same animal, I have heard of them being between 1400 and 2200 ohms, though there mostly 2K also 38 wire( 8 string blade type ).
The biggest difference is the amount of magnet is doubled.
That to my ears is a very Hifi sound, medium impedance lots of magnet.
My favorite Pu's have this, Bigsby, Ricky Horseshoe, CC's.
My 64 Wright Custom/ Sierra has a Bigsby looking blade PU's on it.
They measure about 3200 ohms each (I believe 40 gauge wire), but I play with both necks on all the time.
So thats about 1.6 K, to my ears it sounds great no matter what amp I use tube or early SS (especially Caine circuits}.
@ Brad I think you hit the nail on the head with first analysis.
Lee |
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Chris Johnson
From:
USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2011 9:24 pm
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Thanks guys for the responses,
I've converted back to the classic SC (Fender Stringmaster) specs in all of my guitars by Jerry Wallace and the sound is unbelievable. Non of them too twangy and not the least bit thin. Actually they have a deeper, richer, fuller sound than all of the buckers and modern "heavy" single coils I've used.
C. Johnson |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 7:36 pm
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Some of those old lap steel/console steel pickups were bright enough to tear your head off unless you backed off on the tone, sometimes a little but more often a lot.
Pedal steels often lack a volume control as well as a tone control so I can see why they would voice the pickup to be darker.
A lot of the boutique pickup makers will make your pickup as bright or as dark as you want.
Steve Ahola
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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