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Topic: Twin Reverb speaker suggestions..... |
Kermit Monk
From:
Greeneville, TN
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Posted 29 Aug 2011 4:37 pm |
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Locally, I ran up on a '76 Twin Reverb in almost mint condition. A guy had inherited it from his uncle who bought it new and played it at home. The nephew played bluegrass and never used the twin. It had been parked with the dust cover on it for 13 years. It was not my first choice for a twin since it is a master volume/pull boost, but it looked like it just came out of the show room. Had to take it with me.
This is the 100 watt model...not the 135 watt.
Got it home and plugged it in. The tone was not to die for. Pretty amp...no tone...so I pulled the chasiss and sent it down to our good friend Ken Fox. I wanted this amp setup for dual use steel and tele.
Ken made the following mods:
1. Add reverb and tremolo to the first channel.
2. Changed reverb circuit to the 1970 AA270 circuit.
3. Changed the first channel to make it similar to the '59 Bassman circuit....mid cut moved from 450hz up to 750 hz for steel.
4. "Blackfaced" the second channel for tele.
When it came home, big big difference. Now it has tone. Especially the steel channel! Ken does great work!
While Ken was working on the amp, I did a little research on the factory fender blue label speakers in this one. This one has the 1098 Pyles. Most discussion on the web concludes these are junk. I also had a set of Celestion G12T-100's and a set of red label Jensons (Made in Italy) out of a '65 Twin Reissue.
When I got the amp back I started testing speakers. The factory blue label Pyles were first. They actually sound pretty good. Next I tried one Pyle and one of the Reissue Jensons...decent. Then I tried one of the Celestions and one Pyle..no good. Next I tried both Celestions...terrrible. Next test was both Jenson Reissues. Playable, but not great. Lastly, I put the blue label 70's Pyles back in. These sound best by far.
Tell me what you guys have tried. What is the magic speaker combination for dual use..steel and tele?
JBL D120F's....Webers....Alnicos...Ceramic...what have you tried? What's the hot ticket?
Thanks,
Kermit
_________________
mudstand.com
ZB Custom SD-11 (4 & 7)
Mullen SD-11 (4 & 7) |
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Rich Santucci
From:
Perkasie Pennsylvania USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2011 4:43 pm
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Kermit,
I like the Jensen C12K in those.
Speakers are just so subjective. You gotta go with what sounds best to you.
Rich |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 29 Aug 2011 5:14 pm
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| JBL D120F or K120's would be my choice, and plenty of them were loaded that way at the factory... |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Hermitage, TN
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Posted 29 Aug 2011 5:28 pm
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| Dave Grafe wrote: |
| JBL D120F or K120's would be my choice, and plenty of them were loaded that way at the factory... |
Me too, but after using the new neo Eminence steel speaker (along with a k130 in my normal rig) I'll probably get a couple of 12" Eminence neo speakers for my twin. They're just a tad less bright than the jbl's. Two of them weigh less than one JBL. |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2011 6:23 pm
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http://jensentone.com/tonechart.php
A good chart and page to look at. We have had a lot of happy people using the Jensen Neo 12".
Note that the low end of the Delta Lite is very low compared to the Jensen. It takes way more power to produce the low end that is missing in the speaker! Both are great speakers, I own and use both. I have the Delta Lites in my two PA speakers and two of the Jensen in my Tweed Pro clone and a 1955 Tweed Deluxe clone.
Jensen Neo 12
Delta Lite 2512
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JB Arnold
From:
Longmont,Co,USA (deceased)
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Posted 29 Aug 2011 6:58 pm
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im using the weber neomags. light and got that jbl sound.
_________________
2 Fulawka D-10's 9&5
Sho-Bud Pro 2 8&5
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
"Your FIRST mistake was listening to your wife instead of your steel instructor." (H.Steiner) |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 7:34 am
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I guess that I have to agree with Dave.
I ordered and received a new Twin Reverb in approx. 1967. I ordered it with JBLs installed at the factory. Really can't compain on the tone.  |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 9:33 am
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FWIW: Here is a list of the 12" and 15" speakers that I have tried in my Twin and my humble opinion of each. Maybe this can help you narrow down your search and save you some money:
The stock Jensen C12K - Harsh, muddy, poor string separation, mushy bass. Not as bad for guitar, but I did not like them for steel.
JBL D-130F - Fantastic clear as a bell sound with great string articulation. Tight bass and sparkling highs. Unfortunately, mine was 16 ohm and the amp would get really hot, so I retired the speaker. You can't go wrong with D-120F or D-130F as long as your amp is seeing the right ohms. They are a perfect match for a Twin, but a little heavy.
Jensen Neo 15 (150 watts) - I was hoping to capture some vintage Jensen magic but got a dose of voodoo instead. Terrible, harsh sounding speaker. The FR spikes off the chart at over 110 db at 2k. I gave it two weeks before yanking it out and re-installing the D-130. I hear good things about the Jensen Neo 12s - Ken Fox endorses them in his amps. I will be ordering a set to try out very soon.
Weber Neomag 15 (aluminum cone) - Excellent speaker with very similar sound to the JBL, in fact the mids seemed to be a littler richer with the Neomag. Unfortunately, it is rated at 70 watts and had trouble with the Twin's output in high volume situations. Two twelve's would probably sound as good and handle the power better.
Eminence Screaming Eagle 12" Modeled after old Jensen ceramics with a little boost to the top end. They were ok and a good value but nothing special.
TruSonic 12" (ceramic) - I salvaged these from an old Standel solid state amp I bought. The story goes that Standel was unhappy with the new JBL "F" series speakers and had TruSonic design new speakers modeled after the original D-120 and D-130 (no "F"). These are some amazing sounding speakers. More warmth and hi-fi than the JBL "F" speakers. I don't want to subject these guys to a lot of every day use, so I plan on retiring them to studio work and replacing with either Weber or Jensen Neo 12s.
Summary - There are some great sounding neos out there and they make a lot of sense for a heavy amp like a Twin. Vintage speakers are great, too, but I plan on reserving my rare and somewhat fragile vintage speakers for the studio. |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 9:41 am
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I tested the Jensen Neo 15" and found I did not like it as well! We tested it and several SICA and BW 1501-4 before using the 15" 250 watt SICA in our steel amp.
The 12" Neo seems to do a nice job and sound a lot more like the older Jensen tone that we all remember.
Played a 12" JBL in a 1965 Deluxe for years. I liked it but had a lot ice pick in it! I can see why some players went to a the EV speakers. A great tone for sure, just a ton of weight!!
The older EV Force 12 and the BW 1203-8 were also great speakers for the Twins! I also really like Celection Vintage 30 speakers (had them in a Dual Professional). |
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 10:13 am
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| I have a Dual Showman head that Ken Fox went through for me. I play through a 2x12 cabinet with 2 Weber Michigans. I always liked the EVs and when the Webers came it was like a trip down memory lane! They really did a nice job of patterning them after EV. I have heard a lot of people say that the Weber Californias do capture the JBL overall sound and vibe as well. They are rated at 80 watts and 2 12s are more than enough for an 85 watt Fender. |
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Rich Santucci
From:
Perkasie Pennsylvania USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 10:22 am
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| I'd like to know what the difference is between a JBL D130 and a D130-F, other than the F designates it was made for Fender. Anyone got the specs? |
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Michael Brebes
From:
Northridge CA
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 10:23 am
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My choice is either the EV12L's or the Celestion Vintage 30's. Because of the weight, I would recommend the V30's. I love my 2x12 with EV12L's but it's a back breaker.
_________________
Michael Brebes
Instrument/amp/ pickup repair
MSA D10 Classic/Rickenbacher B6/
Dickerson MOTS/Dobro D32 Hawaiian/
Goldtone Paul Beard Reso
Mesa Boogie Studio Pre/Hafler 3000
RP1/MPX100 |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 12:31 pm
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http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?14876-difference-between-d130-and-d130F
that should help on the JBL question.
Also this from Harvey as well:
The original D130 was around in the hifi world long before Dick Dale. I never met him, although I had heard his records.
The fact that he describes the alleged changes to the D130F - and get's it wrong means that he doesn't have a clue as to what the changes did to improve the D130 for musical instrument applications.
It wasn't "a rubberizing compound we applied to the edge of the D130 to improve cone stability due to large excursions". That's pure BS. It was the same damping "goop" we used on the D123. I used it to prevent the cone edge from drying out when the speakers were played outdoors. The "goop" was mainly used to prevent ringing in the D123, but I figured it would also help to keep the surround in the D130 from cracking and drying out.
There was no change to the voice coil whatsoever; that would require major reworking of our jigs and I was all about pitching the new MI line to Bill Thomas as a cheap way to increase sales and stop repair problems, by coming up with some cheap fixes, AND making the MI line more attractive by adding two new models (the D110F and D140F), built from existing parts.
Opening up the top plate was a no-brainer, since 1.) we didn't hafta do any major machinery changes, and 2.) it would prevent the power screwdriver, ham-handed idiots at Fender from torquing the hell out of the frame and causing the voice coil to warp. (Well, it would still warp, but the extra clearance in the new top plate would keep the windings from shorting out.) The new top plate resulted in less than a 1 dB drop in efficiency.
Dick Dale can posture all he wants; I never talked to him, Leo, or Freddy T. about the "F" series.
I wrote a one page proposal to Bill Thomas, outlining the ideas above and said it would probably increase sales of the MI stuff from $300,000 (where it was) to $1,000,000 within a year, at minimal cost to JBL. Bill Thomas said go for it, put me in charge, and we did $1,200,000 the first year. And that's the true story.
Harvey "Hifi" Gerst |
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Kermit Monk
From:
Greeneville, TN
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 1:47 pm
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Getting some great input guys. Keep it coming....
Regarding the JBL recommedations...I have always heard JBL's in a twin is a thing of beauty, but I have never got to play through this setup. My only concern with a set vintage JBL's is the aluminum dust cap. I am guessing for steel this would not be an issue, but for the Tele I don't want to get the icepick syndrome going. I have played with other tele players who have had their icepick knob on 10...it makes for a long night...
For the steel, I am looking for pretty much what everyone else is mucho headroom and clarity, but with a little of that 70's tube sparkle. For the tele I am looking for twang, spank and again some sparkle, but zero icepick. Can you run the JBLs with that aluminum dust cap and not get icepick with the tele?
Also, JBLs have the alnico magnet as do some of the other speakers that have been recommended. From what I have read the alnicos naturally compress a little earlier than speakers with ceramic magnets. A little natural compression for Tele is a beautiful thing, but what about for steel? What would a little natural compression do for steel tone? Can any of you guys actually hear the difference in compression between an alnico magnet vs. a ceramic or is this just splitting hairs?
_________________
mudstand.com
ZB Custom SD-11 (4 & 7)
Mullen SD-11 (4 & 7) |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 2:31 pm
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| Kermit, you can order Weber Neo's with a paper dust cover to tame some highs. |
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Rich Santucci
From:
Perkasie Pennsylvania USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 2:33 pm
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Ken,
Harvey was the man who designed them so he knows. The only difference between the D130 and the D130F is that the voice coil gap is slightly larger, so that over torquing the frame would not make the Voice coil rub. It makes the speaker a bit more ineffcient, but its minimal.
He's another interesting rant from Mr. Gerst! Its long but worth the read.
http://www.jt30.com/usenet-articles/speakers/d130f-history.html
Rich |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 5:15 pm
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| Rich, that was a great article. I read it some time ago! Worth reading again and others should do the same! |
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Jay Ganz
From:
Out Behind The Barn
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Posted 31 Aug 2011 6:08 am
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| Ken Fox wrote: |
| I tested the Jensen Neo 15" and several SICA speakers. |
Hey Ken,
Did you ever compare the Jensen 300w Neo's to the SICA 350w Standard Lite's? |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2011 6:38 am
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| Ditto what Ken said - very cool article for us speaker geeks! |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2011 5:55 pm
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I never tried the 300 watt Jensen as it was only available in 8 ohms. They offered to build them in 4 ohms for my project, but I trieed the 250 watt SICA and was very pleased. We have only recently been trying the 350 Standard Lite SICA and have had great reviews from users so far. This looks like a very good 15" speaker for any future amps we might build!
Here is a comparison of the Jensen 15" and the SICA 15". The Jensen is listed as a guitar speaker and the SICA as a bass speaker. Amazing similarity in response curves with the "bass speaker" having more high end than the guitar speaker. Notice, like the 12" Jensen Neo how efficient they are around 125hz, the area we hear as low bass. The Delta Lite is about 3db less effienent there and that means a lot more amp power is consumed/needed to produce that low end.
One would have to double the amp power to produce 3db more sound pressure level at 125hz with the Delta Lite speaker
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2011 6:44 pm
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This is the new Eminence 15: steel speaker. Same deal, 3bd less efficient than the Jensen or the SICA speakers, requiring twice the power to produce the same volume at 125hz.
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Jay Ganz
From:
Out Behind The Barn
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Posted 31 Aug 2011 8:28 pm
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Looks like alot less high frequency response with the Eminence as well.
I guess the aluminum dust cap on those helps out in that regard. |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2011 5:23 am
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Interesting that JBL claimed a frequency response up to 6Khz. Was that flat to 6Khz? I have never found one graph yet on a JBL D130F, K130 or E130 speaker to support the claim. If anyone has them I wish they could share them.
After some diligent searching I found some dated Peavey response curves:
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2011 6:50 am
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Another nice chart, the Celestion Vintage 30. Impressive response up to 4khz
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2011 7:01 am
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Another killer speaker, the older EVM15L (shown in a loaded enclosure)
Also the 12" Eminence clone of the EVM12L, the Delta Proi 12A
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