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Topic: Boring Scale Exercises???? |
Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 8 Aug 2009 8:26 am |
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Since I have a difficult time practicing scales (boring!!!),,,,something has just occurred to me that Jeff Newman pounded into the ground,,,,,
When I am just noodling,,,,or (trying to) figuring out a melody,,,,or an intro,,,or fill,,,,,it is for sure that it is built on "some" scale tones! I believe it would facilitate the learning curve tremendously for newbies,,,and experienced players to relate each phrase,,,or portion of the passage,,,or lick directly to scale "practice",,,,a both ends approach so to speak. And if you find what you are trying to figure out does NOT relate to the scale,,,,it would be a good time to question whether what you are doing is correct or not.
Actually it is just as important to figure out how it relates to the scales,, as it is to figure out the passage,,,
Think about it!!! |
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Dave Diehl
From:
Mechanicsville, MD, USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2009 9:53 am
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| Sonny, I visited Jeff many times and each and every time he pounded me over the head about scales. It was boring and I didn't want to learn them but he kept insisting. The more I play the more I realize why Jeff did that. Actually, the more I play the more things I find were true that Jeff told me. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 8 Aug 2009 10:07 am
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It depends on how you practice scales. Just playing them straight through is boring but it's fun to come up with numeric patterns to play through the scales.
For example
in 3's -- play as eighth notes in 4/4
(C-D C-D-E D-E-F) (D-E D-E-F E-F-G) (E-F E-F-G F-G-A) (F-G F-G-A G-A-B) (G-A G-A-B A-B-C) (A-B A-B-C B-C-D) (B-C B-C-D C-D-E) C
in 4's -- also eighth notes
(G-A-B-C) (A-B-C-D) (B-C-D-E) (C-D-E-F) (D-E-F-G) (E-F-G-A) (F-G-A-B) (G-A-B-C)
There are a million ways to turn a scale inside out and create patterns that you can use in solos.
Play all the way up the chromatic scale, with major and minor thirds and flatted and major sevenths.
These examples are ascending (going up). It's also important to play them going down (descending).
It's also important not to limit yourself to a particular position (e.g., NP -- C at 8 or A+B C at 3). Find two octaves of the diatonic major scale in several positions (look at A+F and the pocket around the E to D lever position -- 1st fret on E9).
Play with a simple rhythm track or a metronome to keep you honest. Speed them up to improve your dexterity at a faster tempo.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 8 Aug 2009 11:41 am
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| Yeh,,,that's kinda my point,,,there are millions of ways to play scales,,,,and those ways are called "songs". I am just suggesting we also see "scales" and "songs" as interchangable,,,one and the same. Hey,,,just a way of making scales more interesting,,,for what it's worth. |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2009 12:21 pm
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Jeff's "just play the melody " is nothing but the "C" scale and i loved it
like you said everthing we play is part of some scale !!!
if you play the scales enough,
you start to hear in your head where the next note you need is without thinking about
it, and it makes the music flow more naturaly
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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Bryan Daste
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2009 3:53 pm
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Along the lines of what Larry Bell is saying, on p. 3 of this post I listed some numeric breakdowns of scale fragments:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=159020&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50
It's all about making scale work NOT dull. If you apply some math to a sheet of blank paper, you can make lists of non-boring exercises that can last for months, years, lifetimes.... it's easier to make up exercises than it is to play them!  |
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Jack Ritter
From:
Enid, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2009 6:35 pm
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I agree with you. Sonny.
IN the beginning, I hated those scales and being younger and eager to play, neglected to learn them. One day, I dug out Jeff's "Just Play The Melody" and learned the scales and the different ways to get them, and that opened up a new world for me. I learned them up and down and that stopped a lot of hard work and frustration . I still run some scales for a "warmup" regularly.
I think it will benefit a new steeler a bunch to learn them as there are scales somewhere in most songs.---Jack
_________________
Zum D10 8x5,rev pre-amp, TC M300, Split 12, n-112, IZZY, Hilton vp, Geo L, BJS Hughey, Live Steel |
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Jody Sanders
From:
Magnolia,Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 8 Aug 2009 8:04 pm
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| Knowing scales can sure get you thru a song you are not familiar with. I have been playing many years and have always depended on scales to get me thru. Jody. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2009 8:42 pm
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Seeing scales as a part of the framework for the language of improvisation has really helped me to embrace them as exciting tools rather than boring exercises. I only wish my childhood piano teachers has shown me the connection between scales and Music back when I was sure they were just finger exercises designed to make me crazy!
Looking at the number system relationship of notes in any melody will help with bringing clinical scale shapes into creative focus. For instance, the chorus portion to "Orange Blossom Special" (remember Doug Jernigan's blazing version?) is simply the first 5 notes of the major scale played up and back.
TV show themes, nursery rhymes, and classic melodies of all kinds will show you many ways to twist and turn scales to make them your own.
Practicing scales as sequences and arpeggios as earlier posts suggest is a great way to mine for gold as well. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 8 Aug 2009 10:10 pm Re: Boring Scale Exercises????
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I think it is way more important to learn to play melodies and lead lines than to learn to play scales. It's way more interesting and more challenging. When you get so you can play melodies, you will then realize you can play whole scales or fragments of scales just as if they are a melody.
Learning scales before learning to play melodies will help you know which notes to try in hunting for melodies, but just knowing the scale will not teach you how to play melodies. But knowing how to play melodies will teach you how to play scales.
| Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
| And if you find what you are trying to figure out does NOT relate to the scale,,,,it would be a good time to question whether what you are doing is correct or not. |
This seems backwards to me. Only the simplest melodies stick to THE diatonic scale. Modern music mixes diatonic scales and modes with pentatonic scales and the chromatic scale. Many ethnic music genres which influence our music use various modes that are in effect different scales than the standard Western major and minor scales.
It is possible to take a given melody and analyze what scales or modes are being used, but that's after the fact. It would be a daunting task to learn every possible pentatonic scale and diatonic mode in every key that could be potentially used, and then have all those ready to use for a new melody you want to play, and to figure out which one or ones are needed for the melody - all before you even attempt to play the melody. Far better to simply learn to play the melody and worry about what scales and modes are being used later. I learned to play major and minor pentatonic blues melodies, and to use all the chords of those pentatonic harmonized scales, before I even realized there were such pentatonic scales. Likewise, I learned to play some Spanish Gypsy flamenco by picking out melodies and learning the chord progressions. Years later I learned I was using Gypsy Phrygian mode scale notes to do that. I'm not at all sure that learning the scale in that mode first would have helped me much in learning to play those melodies and chord progressions. Likewise I learned to play some modern jazz. Years later I learned I was playing some of it in Dorian mode. Big deal, that just meant I was using flatted 3rds and 7ths. I already knew that. I didn't need to learn Dorian mode first.
In all these cases I just thought in terms of playing in these various styles or flavors of music. And in learning to play melodies and chord progressions in those styles, I automatically learned those scales and modes. Now, maybe, if instead of diving in and learning to play these styles by ear, I had first gone to a teacher and told him what I wanted to play. And he knew enough to direct me to learning the scale or mode for each style first. Maybe that would have given me a little bit of a jump start in learning to play those styles or genres by ear. But I would have still had to learn to hear or think a melody and play it.
The scales and modes are just abstract lists of potential notes to use. They are not the melodies themselves, except for when scale fragments are coincidentally used as part of the melody. Again, if I can hear or think a melody and play it, I can also play any scale fragment that happens to be part of the melody. And I can think of the whole scale as a melody and play it. But if I just have the scale memorized, that doesn't tell me how to jumble that up and make a melody out of it.
I'm not saying to not learn and practice scales. They are good exercises. But I think you are better off right from the start to spend most of your time learning to play melodies and chord progressions. Actually, chord progressions are more important to me than scales. Because you can comp chords and turn them into arpeggios, even if you can't play the melody. And the melody notes come from the chords. So knowing the chords tells you where to hunt for the melody notes as well or better than the scale does. And when you learn to choose melody notes from chords, you automatically know how to add harmony to the melody notes. Picking melodies out from the list of notes in the scale doesn't teach you how to harmonize like that. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 7:46 am
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David said,,,,,,,"I think it is way more important to learn to play melodies and lead lines than to learn to play scales. It's way more interesting and more challenging. When you get so you can play melodies, you will then realize you can play whole scales or fragments of scales just as if they are a melody.
Learning scales before learning to play melodies will help you know which notes to try in hunting for melodies, but just knowing the scale will not teach you how to play melodies. But knowing how to play melodies will teach you how to play scales. "
I guess I failed to make myself clear,,,all I'm really saying is,,,the melody,,or lead line,,IS,,,the scale!! and the scale is the various passages of ALL songs or melodies,,,just depends on whether we look at it from the front door,,,or the back door. If I'm working out the song "Look at Us",,,I can see it as the song "Look At Us",,,or I can see it as a series of scale phrases,,,,Not structured to a specific mathematical sequence as Larry states,,,that's the boring part!,,,but if I break it down into those scale phrases,,,not only is it "interesting",,,it is then called a "song",,,and what I just did will make figuring out the next one easier. How could anyone say,,,,I like practicing songs better than scales,,,or scales do more good,,,or ???? They are one and the same. I'm just suggesting they be viewed from different directions. And I think that is what Jeff was suggesting also, and spent most of his life trying to get across to us. It just takes it longer to dawn on some of us than others, and I'm trying to share my "dawning" with others,,,for whatever good it might do.
Every response to this thread seems to be separating melody and scale,,,,either/or,,,,my point is,,they are one and the same,,,every melody is SOME sequence of scale tones,,,,and every sequence of scale tones is a melody (maybe a familiar melody,,,maybe one yet to be utilized,,,,but still a melody)
It is just a much more interesting means of "STUDYING" scales,,,and I believe ultimately more productive than the mathematically structured approach. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 8:40 am
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Another thought on this subject,,,,,,,
When I was in the 6th grade I had a subject called "Science",,,,when I was in the 9th grade I had a subject called "Applied Science"
How about,,,"Applied Scales" ?????? |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 12:26 am
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As an experienced guitarist, but a newbie on the steel, Id have to agree with David on this one. The first transition from guitar to steel for me was finding out where the chords were and figuring out various progressions. Although I did learn the basic major scale and double stop patterns, it was finding out what pedal and lever combinations resulted in what chords that was the first hurdle. I still struggle along with scales and single note melodies, but knowing where the chords are helps tremendously in finding the melody, let alone all the harmony notes related to a melody. Its also a lot more fun to practice a melody line which you like and can hum by ear than "do-re-mi, mi-re-do" excercises. Since I dont read music very well at all, I learn by imitating, playing along with steelradio frequently nowadays, first picking up the progression, then the melody lines and solos, turnarounds etc. Its just a fun way to practice for me. I cant say I didnt practice scales and modes up and down on the guitar for years, but mostly I was playing along with recordings, to emulate the sounds I loved. Playing along with your favorite record is so much more fun (and provides that metronome too).
Theory is theory and theres no substitute for that knowledge. Remember only knowing major and minor chords and scales? Discovering the diminished half and whole, diminished minor, augmented and whole tone patterns was like a lightbulb turning on for me and, as Im sure, many others. Whats nice about a beautiful melody is sometimes the notes which arent in a "scale" but those passing tones which chromatically fit into the progression and lead from one chord to another. Like Miles Davis once told Herbie Hancock, "Don't play the 'butter' notes". He was referring to the chord voicings and to omit the obvious root or third or fifth and concentrate on the other scale notes like 7,9,11,13 which makes jazz, well... jazz! If scales are boring to practice, practice scales till youre bored, then have some fun with something you like, like a great progression and sweet melody thats already in your head. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 3:37 am
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| Clete Ritta wrote: |
| If scales are boring to practice, practice scales till youre bored, then have some fun with something you like, like a great progression and sweet melody thats already in your head. |
exactly...
scales are where all music evolves from, and not by accident.
two other very important things come out of scales which are not even related to the music,
discipline
dexterity
those that want to speed pick start here, play the short OBS scale with alternate picking , thumb and mid finger, do this for 30 to 60 days, 5 min a day , you will be a speed demon on that exercise.
discipline
dexterity
this is an example of using a scale to advance your own technique. and it is not just for s speed picking, use scales to advance your technique for single note solo execution, clarity.
In this case it's not actually about the notes but rather the ability to play the notes.
Question to Football Quarterback....
How many passes have you thrown in you lifetime ?
about 200,000
How many have you thrown on the field during the games over your career ?
about 12,000
t |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 4:07 am
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I Give up,,,,,,(if you practice melody,,you ARE practicing scales,,,,whether you call it a scale or "Farewell Party",,,or whatever,,,,that's the point!!!!!) A "melody line" and a "scale" are NOT separate,,,they are not two different things. The melody is just a more interesting way of looking at (and listening to) the scale. Why are we trying to make it "either / or"? Just trying to share some awareness or enlightenment into this thing, not debate which is best to practice.
example,,,when I attended a Jeff Newman class back in the 80s, we all walked into the class room after lunch one time and Jeff was playing something that sounded VERY familiar! Me, being a long time friend of Jimmy Days' said "I Love You Because,,Jimmy Day",,,,Jeff looked at me and said,,,"No,,,just some nice scale phrases" (it was in fact that beautiful, soulful, first line of "I Love You Because",,,but it was also "just some nice scale phases) That's my point,,,,A rose by any other name ,,,,, |
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Rick Myrland
From:
New Orleans
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Posted 5 Jul 2011 10:39 am
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To Clete's point...
I know where to find most of the "commonly used" chords in two or three different places on the neck and how to work my way thru a I IV V or similar chord progression, but I still struggle with finding the melody and playing it. I feel this is really holding me back and if I could figure out where and how to play the melody on the neck and use scales for short fills it would take me to the next step.
What am I missing? Is it right in front of me but I'm making this more complicated than it is? I've done some reading on music theory, scoured this forum trying to figure it out (as you can tell from me resurrecting such an old post) but still I feel the execution of this (not so much the theory) eludes me. I got a copy of Joe Wright's scales book with more scales in it than I could even imagine, but struggling to put it to good use.
I can hum a melody, so how do I transfer that onto the steel, during a song, so that everyone recognizes the melody line. I am tired of trying to memorize so much tab and not being able to create my own style.
_________________
Mullen G2; Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb; Goodrich L-120 |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2011 4:52 pm
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Rick, you may be over complicating it.
Try this....pick a song with a simple melody line....maybe "Faded Love", or similar.
Play the first chord of the song at the point where the melody begins. Now, while keeping you bar at that fret, find the first note of the melody...either right there at that bar position, or within one fret to the left or right. Use pedals, or knee levers if needed...but don't play the chords at this point...just concentrate on finding the melody notes. Now find the next note of that melody.
As the chords change in the song, find the bar position for that chord, and then find the melody notes for that section of the song
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Keep going like this, changing bar positions as required by the song, until you have found the whole first line of the melody. Repeat this melody line, moving the bar so as to follow the chord/bar positions. Keep repeating the line until you can play it without stopping...until it sounds correct...but only playing single notes.
Once you have the line memorized, experiment with those notes. Play a few melody notes, then on the next note play the appropriate chord, with that next note as the top note of that chord, then continue on with the following single notes. On the next pass, play the chords under different notes. What you are doing is studying how the melody notes and the chord structure go together.
You will probably find a combination of notes and chords that particularly sound good to you. Don't try to work out the whole song yet...just practice a verse, or chorus, worth, for a while. If you get bored, pick another simple song and work with it the same way.
After a while you'll begin to understand how a melody moves with the chord structure. Most players choose the notes based on their proximity to the bar position used to play the chords.
Your tab studies do this for you without teaching you much about the underlying musical mechanics. Learning to play the melody is nothing more than locating the melody notes on the guitar. Learning how to combine those notes with the appropriate chords, played at the appropriate time, is the goal. How you do this defines your style.
All this is IMHO. Others may have better suggestions.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 6 Jul 2011 1:30 am
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scales should'nt be boring
if they are then somethin's wrong
(motivation, sincerity)
here's a few based on the 7 degrees of a major scale
teaches the notes to the chords on I II III IV V VI VII
1°---Cmaj7 (Ionian)
1
2----------------------------------8
3
4---------------------------------------8
5------------------------8---8A
6-------------8---8B
7--------8
8---8
2°---Dminor7 (Dorian)
1--------------------------------------8
2-----------------------------8
3
4----------------------------------8
5-------------------8---8A
6--------8---8B
7---8
3°---Eminor7 (Phrygian)
1--------------------------------------8
2----------------------------8
3-------------------------------------------8
4---------------------------------8
5----------------8----8A
6---8----8B
4°---Fmaj7 (Lydian)
1---------------------------------8
2---------------------8
3----------------------------------------8---8B
4---------------------------8
5---------8----8A
6---8B
5°---G7 (Mixolydian)
1
2----------------------------------------------15D
3
4------------------------------------------------------15
5--------------------------------15----15A
6----------------15----15B
7---------15
8---15
6°---Aminor7 (Aéolian)
1----------------------------------------------------------15
2-----------------------------------------15D
3
4--------------------------------------------------15
5--------------------------15----15A
6----------15----15B
7---15
7° ---Bminor b5 (Locrian)
1-------------------------------------------------15
2---------------------------------15D
3----------------------------------------------------------15
4------------------------------------------15
5------------------15----15A
6---15----15B
1°---Cmaj7 (Ionian)
1----------------------------------------15
2-------------------------15D
3-----------------------------------------------15----15B
4----------------------------------15
5------------15---15A
6---15B |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 6 Jul 2011 3:30 am
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off course scales are boring, but it's not about boring, it's about what your goal is.
It may also take 5 years of working on the exact same project in grad school to earn a PhD.
5 min a day of boring is better than 1 hour/day of improper study which is fun.
hunker down...
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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John Rogers
From:
Iowa, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2011 12:15 pm
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Hey Sonny - I get what you're sayin'. See if this makes sense to you. These are some of the lyrics to "Do Re Mi" from the "Sound of Music":
Let's start at the very beginning
A very good place to start
When you read you begin with A-B-C
When you sing you begin with do-re-mi
...,
[Maria:]
Do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do
So-do!
[Maria: (spoken)]
Now children, do-re-mi-fa-so and so on
are only the tools we use to build a song.
Once you have these notes in your heads,
you can sing a million different tunes by mixing them up.
Like this.
So Do La Fa Mi Do Re
[spoken]
Can you do that?
[Children:]
So Do La Fa Mi Do Re
[Maria:]
So Do La Ti Do Re Do
[Children:]
So Do La Ti Do Re Do
[Maria:]
[spoken]
Now, put it all together.
... |
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Jason Hull
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Posted 6 Jul 2011 12:31 pm
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
of course scales are boring, but it's not about boring, it's about what your goal is. It may also take 5 years of working on the exact same project in grad school to earn a PhD. 5 min a day of boring is better than 1 hour/day of improper study which is fun.
hunker down...
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Yes! Quit yer bitchin' and practice your scales, practice your melodies, and work on your ear! Practice doesn't make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect! |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 6 Jul 2011 8:45 pm
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I think it's pretty common to have folks who can look at a position and know where the scales are across the neck within that position. Those are good as well as simple if you want to play single line melodies.
I have nothing against playing fast single line licks and I think they are great to integrate into your pickin'. However those across the neck scale positions are a at best only a small part of the overall pickin' concept
Sliding from chord to chord and harmony to harmony is the secret and much harder to get a handle on but it is the most important part of your progress.
I think it is essential that you break the scales down in harmonized scales.
No.1 For instance the A&B pedals and the F lever (raises the Es a 1/2 step to F) in all combinations is a great sound moving within harmonies and lends ease to the use of Aug and Dim passing chords or harmonies.
No.2 Alternating between B&C pedals and the E lever
(lowers the Es a 1/2 step to D#) similar to Hughey is another great approach to harmony scales.
Here is a couple of examples of A&B&F approach to scales.
Example one is in A using the 1 to 2m slide to 1 theory to across the neck scale.
Example two is a simple rendition in D showing the A&B&F pedals and lever scale in use.
This is just one small part of the overall concept.
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2011 2:06 am
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| Quote: |
| scales are where all music evolves from, and not by accident. |
Tony, I would argue that the opposite is true (although I agree with the spirit of your statement). Scales were "created" as an abstract theoretical explanation for why and how melodies work. I am guessing that you know that and would agree, as would those who have said the melody "is the scale." It might seem like a nerdy semantic detail (hey, that's my schtick), but having a misapprehension about which comes first--the melody or the scale--could lead some people down a frustrating path. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 7 Jul 2011 6:13 am
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Please note that original post is almost 2 years old!!!! I've moved on,,,strange (but good in some ways) that it is being revived.
Bo,,you mentioned in ex 2 the use of E lever and B & C pedals???? I don't see the B & C pedals. I think yo make a good point about movement up and down the neck,,,,I think that is the "signature" of steel guitar. Some years ago there was some big discussion as to all the the stuff that could be played in the same fret position,,,to me that defeats the beauty of the steel guitar,,,the sound of steel guitar is "movement",,,(in moderation of course,,as in all things) |
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