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Topic: AB pedals detune 4E string! |
William Johnson
From:
Statesboro, Georgia, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2011 2:17 pm |
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Hello all,
On my old BMI, when I activate AB pedals, I have noticed that my 4E string is flatten slightly and is a pain. actually either the A or the B pedals effect the E string some. Is this somewhat normal? Is this cabinet drop or most likely another issue?
Thanks,
billy
_________________
William Johnson (Billy)
Statesboro, GA
Sho Bud Student / Emmons DB E9
Sierra DB E9 / ZUM DB E9 / Derby DB E9 Marlen E9 / BMI E9
Mosrite Ventures '69 / Gibson Cherry ES345 / Custom 'Billie-Tele' Telecaster / Gibson '78 J45 / Custom 'P-Strat' Squire Stratocaster / Epi Parlor
Fender '69 Deluxe Reverb / Peavey NV400 + Peavey TubeFex + Goodrich 7A MatchBox & Pedal |
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Tony Dingus
From:
Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2011 2:52 pm
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it's cabinet drop. How do you tune your A & B pedals ? With a tuner or by ear with the E strings ? I tune my pedals to the E string so I've compensated for the flattened E's. It's part of life.
Tony |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2011 3:19 pm
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I think Tony is saying he tunes his Es with the pedals down.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Tony Dingus
From:
Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2011 6:22 pm
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I actually tune my E's to 442 then tune everything else to the E's. I know some tune the E's with the pedals down to allow for cab drop.
Tony |
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Jim Gilliam
From:
Durham, North Carolina
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Posted 3 Jul 2011 5:08 am
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| Beginner question... What is cabinet drop? |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 3 Jul 2011 5:08 am
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| Classic cabinet drop. Anything under 3-4 cents acceptable as you can split the difference. |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 3 Jul 2011 2:10 pm
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Cabinet drop is phenomenon of the increased tension from raising strings slightly flexing the instrument so that other strings drop in pitch. Since the A + B pedals together raise four strings, that's when it is most noticeable.
You will notice it on a fretted style guitar (those more primitive instruments) if you break a string and the others go sharp. |
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Jim Gilliam
From:
Durham, North Carolina
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Posted 3 Jul 2011 2:29 pm
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| That makes sense. Thanks Rich. |
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William Johnson
From:
Statesboro, Georgia, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2011 5:27 pm
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So most agree, to tune the 4E with AB pedals down. What happens when the AB pedals are not down? Split the difference I would think.
BTW: I tune using the Peterson VSII, Factory E9 settings @ 440; opens then pedals as required. It's usually very close but I often touch up the high harmony diads: 1F# & 2D#, then 3G# & 4E as needed.
OK, the money question: What PSG manufacturer does the best job with 4E cabinet drop? I am playing a single body BMI. If it was a DB, I would be in a mess with the 4E drop! Correct, since the body is ~ twice as wide (with most DB steels anyway)?
I need to scrape up some $$ and get back into a better steel. Why on earth do I sell my musical instruments and then re-buy!!! If I had kept all the musical gear I owned since 1965, I would be much happier (and smarter, and wealthier)! I bet some of you have made the same mistakes, right? I could make a list previous gear that would make many of us cry, but I won't, as it's too sad to think of it . . .
Anyways, enjoy the 4th. God Bless America.
Take care,
Billy
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William Johnson (Billy)
Statesboro, GA
Sho Bud Student / Emmons DB E9
Sierra DB E9 / ZUM DB E9 / Derby DB E9 Marlen E9 / BMI E9
Mosrite Ventures '69 / Gibson Cherry ES345 / Custom 'Billie-Tele' Telecaster / Gibson '78 J45 / Custom 'P-Strat' Squire Stratocaster / Epi Parlor
Fender '69 Deluxe Reverb / Peavey NV400 + Peavey TubeFex + Goodrich 7A MatchBox & Pedal |
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Elton Smith
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 4 Jul 2011 9:26 am
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I think msa does a great job with cab drop.The whole guitar has an 1/4" aluminum frame around it with wood or mica over that.It would be pretty hard to squeeze that frame.But there are other issues that would be called cab drop that need to be addressed.
_________________
Gibson Les Paul
Reverend Avenger
Paul Reed Smith
Fender Telecaster
MSA S10 Classic
ShoBud
Old Peavy Amps |
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Joseph Barcus
From:
Volga West Virginia
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Posted 4 Jul 2011 10:20 am
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just tune it and play, you can and will drive yourself nuts over this. there is not that big of a difference, the average ear wont hear it when you are playing with a band. now I am also guilty of tuning with my pedals down because as pedal steel guitar players we play more with the pedals down then we do up.
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvuH7H8BajODaL_wy3_HSJQ |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 5 Jul 2011 5:44 am
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Who told you a double width body detunes more than a single? BTW, are we talking 4 cents (1Hz or so) on a tuner or more than that? Almost all of us deal with that problem every day. If you use an unwound 6th string, how much detuning do you see on the 6th string when you press the A pedal? The larger the string (or core of a wound string) the more detuning will be seen.
I would think that the LENGTH of the guitar would cause more flex when pedals are pushed than the width. However, my experience has been that they're about the same but the WORST detuning guitar I've owned was one of the few single width guitars I've owned. I play a single neck tuning with 7 or 8 knee levers and that doesn't fit well on a single width body so I've been dealing with this for 35 years. Find one you like and live with it.
Once your bar hits the strings it's a new ballgame anyway. Spend your time learning to PLAY in tune.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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William Johnson
From:
Statesboro, Georgia, USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2011 6:57 am
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Larry,
No one told me that and actually I was mistaken in the point I was trying to establish. I was incomplete in my statement about cabinet drop in SB verses DB. What I was trying to establish was the correlation between short and long cross-rods, (i.e., SB and DB) and cabinet drop, IF one exists to any SIGNIFICANT magnitude.
One current manufacturer, (and others I think) claim reduce cabinet drop because they added or use an additional bearing or bushing support in the middle of the DB for the cross-rods. One may could surmise from their claims that DB have additional cabinet drop than SB. If it's significant, I do not know, but I doubt that it is.
Thanks for asking me about that as I was unclear about what I was stating.
Later,
_________________
William Johnson (Billy)
Statesboro, GA
Sho Bud Student / Emmons DB E9
Sierra DB E9 / ZUM DB E9 / Derby DB E9 Marlen E9 / BMI E9
Mosrite Ventures '69 / Gibson Cherry ES345 / Custom 'Billie-Tele' Telecaster / Gibson '78 J45 / Custom 'P-Strat' Squire Stratocaster / Epi Parlor
Fender '69 Deluxe Reverb / Peavey NV400 + Peavey TubeFex + Goodrich 7A MatchBox & Pedal |
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William Johnson
From:
Statesboro, Georgia, USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2011 7:18 am
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Concerning cabinet drop, this is what I have observed on my PSG.
If I clamp (NO PEDALS) the A or B or both down without the use of the floor pedals, the de-tuning of 4E is very slight, (i.e., my Peterson II strobe barely moves downward), but when I use my floor pedals to activate AB, it becomes more of a problem. NOTE that this test was done with the PSG upside down on my service bench with me using my hand pushing the AB pedals up! So, the extra force added by using the pedals is of course, increasing the cabinet drop as one would expect.
What was interesting to me is that my cabinet drop (and most I would bet), comes from two sources: very slight drop due to AB string pulls (less pedal forces), and the larger being the forces resulting from the leverage of the floor linkages, etc. Breaking it down, the lesser drop is caused by the force or pull of the AB related strings, and the noticeable drop is the sum of the AB string pull + the force YOU apply to the floor pedals. So, reduce pedal force and reduce noticeable cabinet drop. The drop caused directly by the string tension on the body is minimal, but the force transferred from the pedal forces is easily noticeable, at least on my PSG.
Anyways . . .
_________________
William Johnson (Billy)
Statesboro, GA
Sho Bud Student / Emmons DB E9
Sierra DB E9 / ZUM DB E9 / Derby DB E9 Marlen E9 / BMI E9
Mosrite Ventures '69 / Gibson Cherry ES345 / Custom 'Billie-Tele' Telecaster / Gibson '78 J45 / Custom 'P-Strat' Squire Stratocaster / Epi Parlor
Fender '69 Deluxe Reverb / Peavey NV400 + Peavey TubeFex + Goodrich 7A MatchBox & Pedal |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 5 Jul 2011 8:26 am
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Billy,
As an additional data point, my push-pull is a S12 on a D12 frame. It detunes 2 cents or less on 4 with A+B. That's less than my ShowPro or Fessenden guitars which are on a D10 frame. I think there's more variation among mfgrs than there is comparing single vs dbl bodies. Materials and other specs are one source of that variation. Like I said, find one you like and learn to live with it. As others have said, it CAN make you crazy if you let it.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 5 Jul 2011 8:28 am
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| the critical adjustment to me is the b-c# change creating the minor chord. you need to find a comfortable balance between that and the both pedals down chord....and open. i usually adjust these slightly to please my ear and it may not be exactly what your tuner wants you to do. |
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