Beginner chord finding challenge(up to 3 years experience)

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

So, I've done my morning theory reading and I sit down at my pedal steel. I'm looking to see what chords I can figure out. Figure I'll write them out noting strings, pedals used, etc. I start at fret 1 and start looking for all that I can spot. Note: only the three pedals can be used.

Fret--Strings--Notes--Name
1-----2 3 5----ACE----A Major 1st inversion

OK, I find the above example. I recognize it as an 'A Major'. So I ask my son if I'm correct. He makes me take all my PSG stuff off the piano. (dang it!) I play the notes and he locates them on the keyboard. He is then able to give me the name and also explain the 1st inversion part. (He's far wiser then his old pops is in this regard.)

So, I'm wondering if any of you that a true beginners (3 years playing or less) are up to my challenge. And it WILL be a CHALLENGE.

Now I realize you with more experience could do this quicker and more easily. However, what I'd ask you to do, is watch out for mistakes by us beginners. If you spot mistakes, then please feel free to correct and explain what's wrong with the answer. OH - Perhaps you could tell us in advance how many are possible. AHH, I won't be surprised if I'm told this question is absurd.

Of course --- Any suggestions about the nature of this challenge would be welcome.

Hans
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

First, without giving anything away..... you might want to check your results. Check online for chord spellings.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I was thinking the same thing.
But he's got the inversion right.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Christopher Woitach · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Well, I've been playing steel less than two years, so I can say - yes, it's a first inversion, but unless one of your three pedals raises string 5 a half step, it's an A minor. Also, it will help your thinking if you list the grips in string order, in my opinion - 5 3 2, C A E, which would be spelled C E A, if it was in pitch order.
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Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

A C E is an A minor chord, not a major chord.

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

Christopher, from your site I see that you are an accomplished musician. I will endeavour to write my grips as you suggest. Strings from lowest note to highest eg. 5-3-2. Notes in pitch order(?) eg. C E A. I am however in the dark about why its an A minor. Will discuss it with both sons later when they've arisen from their beds.

Would I be correct in guessing that you use Sketchup for your 3D work?

Like your name. I'm biased, however. My oldest son's name is also Krystofer. He is cursed with having to immediately begin spelling his name if someone is going to write it down.

If I've goofed in writing the last two paragraphs, this being a pedal steel forum, then someone please let me know.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

Steve Collins · From: Alaska, USA

its minor because you have a flat third, C. A MAJ is A-C#-E.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

Thanx guys.

Only saw your answers after consulting my sons.
I overlooked the fact that the major has C#
Did the chapter on scales and then chord construction, Richard.
Can't account for carelessness.

On a similar note; How is the root determined?
Are the notes placed in alphabetical order and then the root is in position one eg. A C E

Love it that you guys can help me with what probably are silly questions to you.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

It depends on the key the song is written in.
In the key of A (3 sharps), the root chord is A major so A would be the root note or chord.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Typically, when defining a chord, the root is placed first, then the 3rd, 5th, etc... on up.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

I'm confused.
According to Erv, the chord root is dependent on the key a song is in.
What about my original example where I just had three notes.
Not part of any song.
On my guitar they were 5 3 2 which is E C A.
How does one determine the root in this example?
BTW - My sons were unable to answer my question.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

With the notes E C & A, you are looking at a minor chord. So the song could be written in any key that contained an A minor chord. A lot of times when I am doing tab and there is a measure that calls for a C chord and the measure contains an A note, I put in an A minor chord and that fits real well.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

The root is determined by the chord the band is playing, often the bass player is playing the root note. If they are playing and A chord, then that chord is an Am. If they are playing a C chord (for example), those are three of the notes that make up a C6th chord (C E G A).
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

With any three notes, rearrange them in their densest order, in a pair of thirds. Say B, G# E. They'd be closest together as E, G#, B. I believe there are also flash cards for memorization drills. Most of us here assembled could identify which major or minor chords you could build out of any diad and not even pause before giving you a funny look at a tritone.
In short, we knew it was A because we saw A and E. When you see A and E, it's either some flavor of A, or a C6 sans root. The other possibilities¹ are just silly, you're not ready for jazz. Oops. I forgot the obvious. It's the top four notes of Fmaj7.
Basically in time, you'll internalize the common relationships like we've done.

¹Some that occur to me would be E11#5, G13 (although we usually don't use the 11[C, being 4, is also 11 in G] in a 13th)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

The reason those 3 notes are referred to as an A minor chord is because a chord in its most basic root form is series of 3rds. If you organize those 3 notes into sequencial 3rds the lowest note is an A. You can organize those notes into a different series of intervals to get what if called inversions of the basic chord but it is still an A minor chord. Same as the note A is still called the note A when it is an octave higher.

In my opinion its practical to just accept common practice nomenclature and then get on with practicing.
_________________
Bob

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Another, more succinct, explanation is that, among those three notes, the only root:5 relationship is A to E. By definition, it's a flavor of A. Because the E says so.
Does that help?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Smartass.
I got five bux says he WOULD say so, if asked.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Smartass.
I got five bux says he WOULD say so, if asked.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Brett Lanier · From: Madison, TN

Hans,

Any study of music theory will help you to better understand what you're playing, and often you will find that you have to learn things many times, from different angles until you fully understand them.

But... the fact that you thought you were playing a major triad on strings 5,3,2 leads me to believe that you haven't been told about the standard "grips" for E9 pedal steel. Check it out.

Strings: 10,8,6
8,6,5
6,5,4
5,4,3

Play those grips with pedals up, pedals down(A&B), and also with pedal A and F lever together. Practice them all over the neck in one key, until you can go any direction(up the neck, down the neck, up the strings, down the strings) at the last second.

In order to stay in one key, lets say key of C, the no pedal position is at fret 8, pedals down is at fret 3, and A & F will be at fret 11. Just move around between those positions, using all the different grips above. Remember, fret 15 is fret 3 all over again, so that would be a pedals down position.

For fun, try playing the same thing but using these grips intead. 10,6,4
8,5,3 It's just a different kind of inversion where the tones aren't in order, but it's still a triad, as long as you stick to the positions with both pedals up, down, or A & F. Have fun, and I hope this helps speed things along a little.

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

My road to 'triad enlightenment' started with a heated discussion with my son Nathan.
Then came a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_%28chord%29
More discussion at the piano followed.
I will now attempt to answer my question, "How does one determine the root?" and thereby the name of a triad chord.

On the left are the notes written the way they get played.
To determine the root, C and E get repositioned on the staff so they are as close to one another as possible.
This results in the stack to the right.
In this form A is the bottom note and therefore the root.
It is an Am chord (1 b3 5) because the major would have required the C to be a C# (1 3 5).
And, because the C is below A and E in pitch, an inversion, it should be written as Am/C IMHO.
(This can also be accomplished using the piano keyboard.)

I previously taught grades 7, 8 and 9.
But now, as the beginner, I need the simplest possible explanations for my questions.

Ok, how does my explanation sound to you guys?
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Your explanation and showing your work are spot-on, and exactly how all of us do it til it all gets memorized.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

YAHOO

Once again I'm older too soon

but

at least I'm a little wiser

TOO LATE
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

As a former teacher, I'm sure you recognize the value of flash cards in learning new languages and systems.
Have a website: http://www.musicards.net/
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

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