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Topic: Leather Dye And Tru Oil |
Brian Henry
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Posted 10 Jul 2010 8:36 am |
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Is it a good idea to put leather dye down and then use tru - oil?
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LOOKOUT MOUNTAIN GEORGIA |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 10 Jul 2010 12:44 pm
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| not for a guitar. Tru oil is for gun stocks. |
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Rick Barnhart
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 10 Jul 2010 1:24 pm
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I'm not sure about the leather dye part, but I know Tom Pettingill gets some beautiful results with Tru-oil on his guitars.
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Clinesmith consoles D-8/6 5 pedal, D-8 3 pedal & A25 Frypan, Pettingill Teardrop, & P8 Deluxe. |
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Chris Battis
From:
Reno, Nevada, USA
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Posted 10 Jul 2010 1:42 pm
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Tru-Oil and Fiebling's Leather Dye are compatable. Just be very, very patient using Tru-Oil and let it dry between coats. I've used Tru-oil a good bit now and I love the feel of the finish. If you do not have a spray facility you can wipe it on with a plain old coffee filter. I use the filter to apply finish because it is not really absorbent so you only put on a little. Apply too much and it will sag in a really unattractive way. Just cut it back after each coat with 0000 steel wool and polish the last coat with a dry coffee filter.
Chris |
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Posted 11 Jul 2010 8:35 am Re: Leather Dye And Tru Oil
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| tbhenry wrote: |
| Is it a good idea to put leather dye down and then use tru - oil? |
I've not use leather dye, but a couple things I'd be concerned about is how well it holds up to fading / color change and bleed through on the solvent based varieties. Best practice is to test on some scrap first.
| Bill Hatcher wrote: |
| not for a guitar. Tru oil is for gun stocks. |
Its not just for breakfast anymore 
Tru Oil is actually a polymerized linseed oil based product and more like an old school varnish. It does not crack or yellow with age and cures fairly hard offering about the same protection as the popular thin skin nitro finishes.
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2010 10:53 am
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When I was doing gun stocks, I made a drying box using a large box from a stereo speaker. I had an old industrial strength metal, hand held hair drier that I aimed into the bottom, a couple of vents near the top, and a piece of broomstick going across to hang the stocks. I could do 5 or 6 coats of different hand-rubbed oil finishes a day easily. Tru Oil or Tung Oil. Really saved a lot of time! And the finishes came out glass smooth. I usually did about 20 coats on a stock or knife handle.
(Gratuitous fuzzy pic of a knife, didn't have a digital camera back then)
The wood is from a crotch-cut of Osage Orange.
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John Allison
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2010 7:39 pm Re: Leather Dye And Tru Oil
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| tbhenry wrote: |
| Is it a good idea to put leather dye down and then use tru - oil? |
No problem with either of those on most wood. Most leather dye is analine and depending on what you want to do, you can dilute it with denatured alcohol. You can get some dramatic effects on figured maple with multiple applications of different colors (lightest first).
Tru oil is a great wood finish and it can be used as a light open-grain finish or, with some patience, as a filled, high gloss varnish finish. It's easy to deal with, just don't try to put too much on at once.
Good luck
J A
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John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com |
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Bobby Burns
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2010 5:01 am
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I've used a lot of true oil, and a lot of leather dye. The trick to true oil, is wipe the coats as thine as possible. I wipe on a heavy coat, and then wipe it down as if I intended to wipe it all off. I wouldn't try to wipe the stain on, and then apply the oil an hour later though. You want to make sure that the alcohol has completely evaporated. Sometimes the dye will leave a little of a residue. I go back after each coat of dye is completely dry, and scrub off anything that will easily come off on the rag. Then you won't have a problem smearing it when you rub on the oil.
I hear all the time folks saying, "You can't use that. It's for guns, floors boats, and such." These days, a lot of instruments are varnished using true oil, or spar varnish. I know of more violin and mandolin makers that use one of these varnishes, than I know makers who use one of the expensive "special instrument varnishes" that come from a violin supply place.
When it comes right down to it, finish is not a material, it's a technique! |
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Brian Henry
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Posted 17 Jun 2011 12:23 am
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One question: Is tung oil the same as tru oil? Thank you.
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LOOKOUT MOUNTAIN GEORGIA |
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Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2011 6:16 am
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Analine dyes ( which are what leather dyes are) are a great way to put color into wood. They are available in a very wide range of colors, blues, yellow red, ect. as well as wood tones. They are also available in three solubilities: water, oil/lac, and alcohol.
The water solubule dyes are the most colorfast, with oil/lac second. Alcohol dyes are not very stabil and will fade quickly.
Analines are sold pre-mixed or in a powder form. The powders give you the most flexibility as far intesity of color. By varying the concentration of powder in solution you can get a very subtle effect to very deep. They realy bring out the figure of wood like curly maple.
The best way to apply them is by flooding the surface with the solution and then wiping off the excess. They are self regulating meaning that multiple application will not give you a darker appearance. If you want a deeper color you need to put more powder into solution. Experimentation is a must.
As a rule the way the dye looks on the wood wet is the way it will look under a finish. For best results in color matching ect. work in natural light - outside on an overcast day is perfect. Artificial light can realy play havoc with your perception of color.
Analines of the same solubility can be intermixed but there are so many options you should be able to find one that is just what you are looking for. If you want to mess around go ahead. For wood tones you are usually modifying the amount of precieved red in the dye. To kill red ad some green.
Test everything on some scrap and make up more dye than you think will need. Have some scraps of they same wood you are finishing. Treat them the same as your actual project. Sand them the same, same dye, exct same steps, etc. This way if you need to test something you have a piece that is at the same stage as your project so you can be sure of the results before you commit.
If you are going to be applying a wipe on type of top coat it is a good idea to use a dye that is a diffrent solubility than solvent in the top coat. In other words if you plan on applying a rubbing oil don't use an oil soluble analine as the rubbing oil will lift some of the dye. I often apply a light wash coat of shellac over water or oil soluble analines (not over alcohol soluble)to act as a sealer then proceed with my top coat
Most good wood working supply houses will have a supply of analines. The brand of dye that I like the best is Lockwoods. Good luck and have fun.
Gary Meixner |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2011 6:28 am
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Gary,
How deep do aniline dyes penetrate a wood like Maple? I read somewhere, a long time ago, re gunstocks, that a method for making Maple's various grains "pop," was to use a brown dye, and then do the final sanding. I guess the sanding was to remove surface dye, but that the dye would be left in the grain patters such as Bird's Eyes, etc., where the dye would have penetrated deeper.
Edited to add; If aniline dyes penetrate too deeply, perhaps a different type of dye/stain would work?
aniline |ˈanl-in|
noun Chemistry
a colorless oily liquid present in coal tar. It is used in the manufacture of dyes, drugs, and plastics, and was the basis of the earliest synthetic dyes. • Chem. formula: C 6 H 5 NH 2. |
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Posted 17 Jun 2011 8:27 am
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| tbhenry wrote: |
| One question: Is tung oil the same as tru oil? Thank you. |
No, but the lines can be blurry with todays marketing speak.
Real pure tung oil is a century's old finish and comes from the tung tree. It is what is considered a drying oil. In its pure traditional form, it is slow to dry and does not build a film.
The problem is that in todays world, the word tung is used liberally and often found on products / wiping varnishes that contain little or no pure tung oil.
Tru Oil's name is a little misleading to in that it is not a traditional drying oil, but more like an old school oil based varnish. Its main component is polymerized linseed oil and will build a film.
As anyone that is familiar with my work will know, I like and use Tru Oil a lot. It brings out the beauty in even the most modest of woods.
Gary ... great explanation of dyes!
John ... Penetration depends on porosity and density of the wood being dyed.
The dye dark and sand back on figured maple popping technique works because the figuring in maple is of different densities and directions in the grain / grain runout. The dye soaks in deeper on the softer flame / curly parts and or where end grain is exposed from run out.
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2011 8:39 am
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"The dye soaks in deeper on the softer flame / curly parts and or where end grain is exposed from run out."
Yup Tom! That's why I was wondering about penetration depth. You wouldn't want to have to sand too much to get back to natural wood, with the deeper colored grain. BTW, what kind of dye is RIT? Aniline? It comes in a zillion colors. I have dyed wood red with it, and it did quite a nice job! Not sure about it's durability as far as fading goes though. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2011 5:49 am
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John,
Thanks for correcting my spelling. I often write too fast an don't often spell check.
Water soluble and oil/lac soluble dyes soak in the deepest, but on dense woods like hard maple that still won't be very deep.
When using water soluble dyes it is a common practice to dampen the wood surface with clear water first and let it dry. This will raise the grain - you then knock that down lightly with some fine sand paper. This is probably the same as "whiskering" as you described.
When you apply the dye the grain may still raise up a bit. You can knock that down again with fine sand paper. If you sand through the color don't worry. If you have more of the same dye that you originaly mixed up, just re-apply. It will darken the light areas to match without further darkening the rest of the wood. This is what is meant by self regulating.
Behlen's makes a water soluble aniline dye that is already mixed up in a non-water solvent that won't raise the grain. I believe they call it Solar Lux NGR. I still prefer to buy the powder and mix it myself.It is cheaper and you have more flexibility.
Keep in mind that these dyes are not the same a wood stain. The colorant in dyes is in solution and changes the wood color. The colorant in stain is actually fine particles that are in suspension. With dyes you can very the intesity a lot but with stains the wood will only hold so much of the color particles and no more. Anilines will have a very transparent look to them while stains will be kind of muddy.
In some cases the dye alone is too bright looking, particilarly the wood tones. You can ad oil/lac soluble dyes to traditional oil based wood stain and apply them together if you want. This will give you the intesity you want with that more muddy look that we are used to seeing with wood tones.
I have not used Tru-Oil so I can't comment on it specifically but there is a product sold called Tried and True Oil Finish. This is a very nice product to use. It is 100% pure linseed oil that has been cooked to allow it to dry in open air. This is how many oil finishes were polymerized years ago. Then it was discovered that certain chemicals could be added to these oils that would allow them to cure without cooking. Many of these dryers were heavy metal compounds. They were very reliable but most are now no longer being used. The substitute dryers are not as good.
The Tried and True Oil uses no dryers and no solvents. You must apply thin coats and let them dry. If applied too thick the surface that is exposed to the air cures and seals off the rest of the finish from it's oxygen source so it can't dry. Be patient, apply many thin coats and watch the finish grow into a beautiful hand rubbed varnish.
Very best always,
Gary |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2011 9:16 am
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Gary!
We were all misspelling it! I've always spelled it "Analine" in the past. This time my Mac's "Spell Czech" caught me. I included the definition because it was interesting! I didn't know where the stuff came from, nor it's other uses.
"Whiskering" is one further step beyond what you described. After dampening the wood to raise the grain, sanding that smooth, there will still be tiny fibers, whiskers, that are lying down. Sand in one direction only. A very short blast, just a couple of seconds, of steam will make them stand up straight. Sand once in the opposite direction, and they will all be cut off. The short shot of steam won't raise the grain again, only the whiskers. I used this technique on Maple, Walnut, and Cherry gunstocks. Read about it, 30 years ago, in some old book.
JB |
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