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Topic: Passive practice ? |
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 1 Jun 2011 7:15 pm |
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I have been trying a new way of learning tunes for gigs these days. Used to hammer away and chart out every song. I've decided to try and get away from paper a bit so I listen to the songs I need to learn without paying attention to them while away from my steel. I put the songs on as background music while I'm doing something. For some reason they seem to be sticking in my memory better. I get on the bandstand with no notes and the songs just come to me for the most part.
I think I read something on the forum about trying that way of learning tunes.
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Bob |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 1 Jun 2011 8:10 pm
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Bob,
Thats a good way to get a tune in your head! I wouldnt call it passive practice as much as active listening. Even when not actively listening, the subconscious mind still hears it subliminally. I think many musicians listen to music a bit differently than the average listener. I tend to visualize how the song is physically played as I listen to it. Many times you can pick out the key and progression without any external reference. The more familiar you are by ear, the less you need to rely on charts.
Clete |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 1 Jun 2011 8:25 pm
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| This works really well for me. It gets better if I have a little time to imagine playing steel while listening. While I'm still relatively green on the steel, I usually need some charts or notes to minimize stress and/or tentative playing. I sure look at them less when I'm immersed in the music though! |
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Justin Jacobson
From:
Rochester, MN
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Posted 1 Jun 2011 8:46 pm
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| This is the only way I use to prepare for songs. I agree musicians listen to music differently than no musicians. People think I'm crazy for wanting to listen to classical music when I'm tired on a car trip, but I find I pay attention to what all the instruments are doing and all that thinking about the music keeps me awake. I like to think the same happens when playing music, rather than charting things out (which I wish I could do honestly) just listening and playing in the moment I think produces some of the best sounds. |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 3:48 am
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The goal of a good musician is to play what's in your head. If you can hear the tune, mentally, you should be able to play it. (easier said than done, but it's a goal worth striving to)
As such, listening without an instrument, makes sense.
Your brain learns the song, and the skills you've developed allow you to play it.
Obviously a new player first has to first develop the playing skills. |
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Joachim Kettner
From:
Germany
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 5:29 am
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The rule for me is listening ten times, until a song sticks to my mind.
And what Clete and the others said, a musician listens on another level.
I sometimes wish I wouldn't always try to analyse what I'm hearing 
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Craig Schwartz
From:
McHenry IL
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 5:54 am
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Hello all , Great topic , been practicing for about 3,000 hours religiously, (Im obsessed with it and cant help it) taking all the Newman e9 lessons (all of them )that I could get my hands on. over and over again...
I made a goal to learn 25 songs within 2 years of being a student , Im now at 2 years 2 months and counting, Now I know 25 songs (Big deal Right ? )
OK then I got to tell ya, I needed those directions to learn its ok to move everything on your body in wierd ways w/patterns (moving all your limbs w/jerking motions at times, so you can get that sound) Quite embarassing at first if you ask me... It just feels weird at first , For the new guy in town Get used to this imediatly
anyhow, with knowing the 25 songs and 3000 hrs later Im starting to understand what you guys are saying and I thought I kinda knew that from the beginning, but I really didnt... Although it was a very good advise from you pros and much appreciated,
Learning all that business first is crucial , Charts and tab included , For me its a necessity to have good direction, not to undermine anyones opinion here... but of the 25 songs at least half of them were learned without any charts or tablature , I`m still learning how to move in the right directions, I can hear it in my head ,but I can`t play it confidently yet , Im sure I`ll get it eventually, My question for you pros : When do you realize youve got that touch ? When they start payin you MAYBE ? Thanks fellas Great thread Bob
Craig
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SO MANY LURES, SO LITTLE TIME.... |
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Elton Smith
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 6:09 am
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Whistle while you work.Once you got the tune in your head.Keep it there.I think musicans have the ability to pick out single instruments in a recording.I may listen to the steel part,then listen to what the guitar player is doing .Then go to the bass and drums.We do hear it differently.
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 6:17 am
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I do that too. A lot of times I'll get a CD (or two) with a bunch of songs on it, and some instructions like "The set will come from this list of songs." No way to know which ones will get called, or which ones to chart. So I just put them in the CD player in the car, and listen to them to and from the day gig, which is almost an hour one way. After a listen or two they start sinking in, and when the song gets called it comes back somehow, and I can generally remember it well enough to play it with some confidence. For me this process works best when I get the songs at least a couple of weeks ahead of time.
As others have said, it's funny how while you're listening you don't consciously think "ok, that's 2m, 5, 4" or whatever (at least I don't), but somehow that connection gets made when you start playing it. I believe it's like learning to speak in sentences, you don't consciously think 'preposition, adjective, noun, verb... ' you just speak. Same with music, it's very much a language.
Wow, I'm pretty philosophical this AM, better get more coffee.
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Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 6:55 am
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Musicians definitely listen differently. It makes it hard to go out with nonmusician friends,listening to a band. "Do you have to analyze EVERYTHING? Can't you just enjoy the music?" That's like asking me to stop breathing.
Because of this, we subconsciously analyze and learn every song we hear, and the more often we hear it, the better we remember it. There is a benefit to this "passive practice" (I like that term;) I'm not criticizing myself when I'm just listening. Without any expectations, it's easier to absorb the information. |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 7:59 am
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I tried listening to Jake Hooker for a couple nights while I was sleeping, just to see what would happen, and sure enough I played a Dickey Overbey lick on my next gig. It just came to me out of nowhere. I tried the same thing with Charlie Parker, but with less favorable results.
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 8:48 am
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I think Bob's method is one that we all use to a greater or lesser extent, simply to familiarize ourselves with the sound of the song without actually going through the motions of physically playing the moves. We relate those sounds to familiar chordal relationships we already know and can recognize.
But I think this method only works if the music is within the intellectual database of music theory we also carry in our heads and are basically familiar with.
IOW, if you know that Parker's "Ornithology" is the same chord progession as "How High The Moon," repeated listening might tell you "I know that progression and will be able to slog my way through an acceptable improv" or remove some of the mystery. But if you aren't aware of, or can't recognize the relationships of the chords you're hearing to each other, repeated listening without additional instruction may not yield much.
Unless, of course, you're really, really good. 
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Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 9:04 am
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| Quote: |
| We relate those sounds to familiar chordal relationships we already know and can recognize. |
Yeah Herb, that's what I was trying to say with my crude analogy to speaking in sentences. Well said...
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Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Jim Hollingsworth
From:
Way out West
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 9:10 am
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I listened to Pat Metheny constantly for years before i finally got enough training to comprehend what he was doing. To my surprise I had learned to phrase my lines by playing up the strings the way he does just from listening to him. It is musical osmosis ......
Jim |
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Bob Hickish
From:
Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 9:19 am
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See Bob , from what Herb said you can become a hack like myself -- I agree with Herb , you can get a lot of cord progressions in you head that don’t always work to one’s advantage --- However thats the best I got - i couldn’t do what you do ( or have done ) on a bet
case in point --- I cant play the George Strait tune “ Right or Wrong “ with out ending up with Eddy Arnold’s “Any time “  |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 9:31 am
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I listen to a CD of the band on the way to the gig. Seems to help quite a bit. It's not really "passive listening" though. I'm lucky that I haven't crashed. 
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 9:59 am
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Craig wrote:
| Quote: |
| When do you realize you've got that touch ? |
There is never a definite answer. It's a process, not an on/off switch. I don't know if we're ever entirely there, but I'm closing in on it.
Craig,
Your two years of learning songs from Jeff is a worthwhile investment, but now you have to tackle some new tasks. Those two years prepared you for it.
I'd recommend:
- Transcribing some solos on your own.
- Learn enough about music theory to understand why the licks you learned in Jeff's songs work.
- Mix and match those licks between songs.
- Record yourself, and listen critically to identify issues needing work.
When I transcribe a song, I usually never have to look at the paper again. The mind works in wondrous ways. |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 12:59 pm
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| Joey Ace wrote: |
When I transcribe a song, I usually never have to look at the paper again. The mind works in wondrous ways. |
That is true. It is akin to learning something thoroughly by teaching it to someone else. Except that the someone else is you. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 3:13 pm
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In regards to studying for college subjects, there's ample evidence that if you process information through as many channels as possible, it's got a much better chance of sticking in your head. That's why your roommate's notes don't help much, because it was the writing of them that hammered in the tent stakes, so to speak.
I see no reason why music would be different; so it's the charting of the song that matters most, not having the chart later - unless to pass it on to somebody (who would be better off doing their own). Playing the same things in different places hammers in the melody (and it's potential branches) better. I usually work on the same piece on guitar and pedal steel, so it becomes something other than a set of finger movements. Hopefully.
Several years back I got tired of hearing fast movements and music that I couldn't understand because I couldn't hear it, So I deconstructed a couple of violin concertos - sheet music, listening, quarter-speed then half-speed play-along (on six-string). Other people have done the same with the Charlie Parker "book", bluegrass, whatever it takes. Practicing away from the instrument helps break up comforting (hence limiting) patterns, for me. I'm all for the zen, relaxing part of chilling with your ax, but playing the same thing for 20 years...(?) Jeff Beck just recorded a couple of OPERA arias, for Pete's sake. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 4:07 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| I listen to a CD of the band on the way to the gig. Seems to help quite a bit. It's not really "passive listening" though. I'm lucky that I haven't crashed. |
and I'm lucky I have not crashed into bob..
t
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Tim Tyner
From:
Ayden, North Carolina U.S.A
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 4:48 pm
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| Well,Tony and Bob it could have been a pile up,as I too recently had the honor of playing steel on a weekend dinner theatre with my lifelong close friend and pedal steel idol Clyde Mattocks.Clyde played the tele on this one and gave me cd,s to listen to as Bob mentioned.I drive 30 miles one way to work and this gave me time to really listen.To my surprise I was able to really learn them rather quickly,and not drift off the highway.I really prefer this to charts if time permits. |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2011 6:50 pm
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| I am one of those week end "never will be's" and my "system" requires that I MUST know the melody line before I can comphrend anything else.......sometimes that is a tall order for me. I listen over and over just to get the melody down. |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 3 Jun 2011 4:57 am
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I have found over the years that you cant retain everything from the past, i work soleley on current topics and let the past disapear if it needs to. Example, if i learn an instrumental this month and dont play it again for 6 months, i cant pull it off smoothly, that used to irritate me, but whilst i am learning new tricks' i'm loosing old one's. Human nature and i have learned to live with it.
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Ronnie Boettcher
From:
Brunswick Ohio, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2011 8:15 am
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I'm with yall on getting the songs on a CD and listening to them. Not ao much for me, to try and learn all the licks, or rides, the steel has, but mainly the flow, and tune of the song. Then I can at least play what comes into my head. A few weeks ago a guy at a jam, asked me to get familiar with a Mark Chestnut song. So I found the song, and listened to it for a week. Get to the jam, and he wanted to sing it. I asked him to hum the song, so I could play the intro. (i forgot it) but it came out very good, and he had a big smile on his face. Thats what it is all about. Called entertainment.
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Elton Smith
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2011 8:55 am
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One of the most amazing things to me is playing with other musicans.To get 5 or 6 people to do the same thing at exactly the same time may be one of the hardest things there is on the planet.And we practice to be able to do that.The tighter you are the better you sound.Then after we get that sound we like to go jam with some new pickers just to try it again.When you hear a musican play you get to hear what they are thinking.That is amazing to me.I may play the same song with other musicans,and the song will sound different.Not in a bad way just different.
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