| Author |
Topic: First gig with a Twin |
Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
|
Posted 14 Apr 2011 2:55 pm |
|
Played a REALLY loud gig last night with a local country band. I played with them in January, and my 60 watt Garnet was just not loud enough! Crazy. I didn't gig this loud in a hippy rock jam bad when I was 19!
I borrowed a 100 watt early 70's Twin Reverb from a friend for last night. Seriously. The Sho~Bud has never sounded so huge! The amp only had stock Fender speakers, too...
Now excited to build a Weber clone with Neo speakers! |
|
|
 |
Rich Hlaves
From:
Wildomar, California, USA
|
Posted 15 Apr 2011 8:02 pm
|
|
Cool! One of my favorite all time amps of any brand. If you are thinking of building a TR. Take a look at the Marsh Amps kits. He sells basically the Mojo kit but at a slightly better price.
With an 85 watt ear pounder I would want better components than what the Weber kit offers. Too much China in there for me. You want that thing to be absolutely stable. I think it would be worth the up charge for the Heyboer iron, better caps, resistors, tubes etc. I think it would still be less money than a reissue Twin. Marsh allows a delete speaker option when ordering so you could still get the wonderful Weber Neos. I have the 15s in my Home built Showman. Oh baby!
Just my $0.02 US
_________________
On man....let the smoke out of another one. |
|
|
|
Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
|
Posted 15 Apr 2011 10:01 pm
|
|
| Thanks for your 2 Rich! |
|
|
|
Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
|
Posted 15 Apr 2011 10:46 pm
|
|
There are few amps that can take the place of a Twin when it comes to steel. It breaks up at just the right level. And it's an alternative to the Peavey sound.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
|
|
|
Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
|
Posted 15 Apr 2011 11:03 pm
|
|
I think Marsh sells the mojo kit - but with instructions!
Mojo kits are actually pretty good, but you'd better know what you're doing!
Weber kits, on the other hand, really leave a lot to be desired. Mojo/Marsh come with good wire and good components for the money. You won't need to upgrade the parts much. Weber is a mish mash of inexpensive Chinese parts and teflon wire. Maybe its only a little less expensive - but its definitely a lot cheaper!
That said, I would probably beef up the power supply and skip the whole Vibrato circuit if its just for steel. Use the spare hole for a tone knob for the reverb. Mojo will cut you a 15" baffle too - you can put in a single 15 and get the weight of the amp down under 50lbs.
Something I don't like about all of those kits is the fiber board. If you have ever seen the inside of an old Fender amp you should know better than to build a new one on that terrible stuff. Get a piece of garolite from Watts. You'll thank yourself in 30 years when its still arrow straight.
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
|
|
|
Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
|
Posted 16 Apr 2011 8:37 am
|
|
My amp tech told me that Fender amps without reverb tend to stay cleaner when turned up. I'm no expert on this, but it may be worth looking into if you prefer digital reverb and you're building your own.
Brett |
|
|
|
Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
|
Posted 16 Apr 2011 8:52 am
|
|
Good Tip, Brent. Thanks for sharing.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
|
|
|
Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
|
Posted 16 Apr 2011 10:06 am
|
|
| Brett Lanier wrote: |
| My amp tech told me that Fender amps without reverb tend to stay cleaner when turned up. |
depends on the circuit. The tweed era amps don't have reverb, and they don't really stay clean past 3 on the volume dial.
The BF and SF amps do have reverb for the most part, and they are much cleaner amps. However, this does not have much to do with the reverb - its mostly to do with the design of the amp. If you remove the reverb circuit from a BF design it will certainly be a clean monster - but that would be true for any circuit that you remove components from. Less = cleaner.
Clean has a lot to do with the design and tolerance of the inverter, and the feedback back into the inverter from the output. If you want to clean a Twin up even more you can lower that 820 feedback resistor, but you will lose some gain.
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
|
|
|
Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
|
Posted 16 Apr 2011 12:08 pm
|
|
Thanks for the details about that Tim. I'm curious about how your new amp is sounding. Are there any decent sounding youtubes of that yet?
My deluxe is in the shop right now getting a post power section line out installed. I'm hoping it will sound good plugged into a split cab. I realize it may buzz a little, but I'll put up a post if it goes well. |
|
|
|
Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
|
Posted 16 Apr 2011 5:03 pm
|
|
thanks for asking!
My amp is still in the prototype phase - but I will have videos and audio soon. I will probably start taking orders early in the summer.
I have been gigging and tweaking the prototype and it sounds unbelievable! Twin like, but much more depth and detail. The reverb is very usable and versatile. The original post talked about the "hugeness" of the Twin - my amp is very huge - but it can also be very subtle. Like a giant tip-toeing around a sleeping infant.
Compared to BF and SF twins, its a bit creamier and has a lot less "sag". That means you get to hit high notes and low notes together and hear both! Reverb on board definitely does NOT interfere with cleanliness in this case. By the time this amp breaks up you're deaf.
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
|
|
|
Gary Richardi
From:
SoCal, USA
|
Posted 17 Apr 2011 9:54 am
|
|
| I've used rented Twins on the road and they have probably given me the best results for both steel and rock 6-string through one amp. |
|
|
|
john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
|
Posted 18 Apr 2011 4:47 am wish list
|
|
Here's one for the wish list:
Blackface twin head only
-single channel only.
-no vibrato, trem or reverb.
-effects loop for digital verb.
-A/C outlet for above.
-4 OHms with ability to run an extra 4 OHM ext cab.
-upgraded caps and trannys.
-steel modded midrange control (A la Ken Fox)
-smallest possible chassis size
_________________
Steel Guitar Services:
Live performance and recording. Instruments, repairs and lessons. Fresh bait/discount sushi.
(203) 858-8498
widcj@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
|
Posted 18 Apr 2011 7:12 am
|
|
| Thanks for all the input. I'll be building with the Weber kit only as a starting point; all caps, resistors, pots and tubes are upgrades. I'm happy with Weber's iron (after 10 builds) so I'll start there. |
|
|
|
Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
|
Posted 18 Apr 2011 10:09 am
|
|
"The tweed era amps don't have reverb, and they don't really stay clean past 3 on the volume dial."
Have you never tried a high power twin tweed? Nearly twice the output iron of a Twin reverb and clean as whistle.
We make them with 212, 115 or a head version. Note the lack of the effect loop, can you hear where an effect loop would make it any better? Most effects loops in fact overdrive effects pedals and are a source of added noise and distortion.
Want to hear one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ednRg7_iKYA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL |
|
|
|
Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
|
Posted 18 Apr 2011 12:11 pm
|
|
ok, maybe with the exception of the Tweed Twin - that said, the Tweed amps do not have the power supply of their BF and SF brethren. Especially after a modern redesign - the BF twin can really take a hit without dropping the voltage!
I assume you are using a SS rectifier in your amps to get some of that power back?
I bet we are using the same OP transformer too! Now if only there were Neo Speakers in 2R we'd be in to some serious business in the low end.
Another strike against the Tweed Era amps, in my opinion, is the horrible chassis design. Wow is it hard to service one of those puppies! Once that fiber board goes in, it better never come out again!
I agree about the effect loop - again, in my opinion, on board reverb is the ticket. Pedals are noisy and what's the point of having this KILLER tube amp just to run your steel through a solid state pedal running on 9V?!?!? But I am a purist, and maybe a snob... if its not discrete, and at least 24V, I don't want it unless I need it (delay pedal and tuner)
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
|
|
|
Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
|
Posted 18 Apr 2011 12:32 pm
|
|
"BF twin can really take a hit without dropping the voltage"
The only difference in supplies is a few more volts on the secondary of the BF and Silverface amps. There is no voltage regulation there to prevent sag. You turn up the bias voltage and just watch that plate voltage go down every time.
The internal resistance of a rectifier tube is avoided there for sure in the BF/SF Twin. We do use a solid state plug in rectifier and can also use a 5AR4, if needed. Actually I have never gotten more than 80 watts RMS out of a Twin Reverb on my test setup. We have gotten as high as 92 watts out of the Tweed era design! I have gotten 100 watts out of the 135 watt Twins. More plate voltage will yield more power for sure, but there is a sacrifice in tone when you go to the higher plate voltages.
The output transformers in the Silverface and BF era were actually very small for a 80-100 watt amps. Per my conversations with Heyboer (and they make both tweed era and BF era transformers) the Tweed Twin transformer by Triad was about a 105 watt unit and the Schumacher of the SF/BF is about a 40 watt transformer.
As far as serviceability, I see no issue. I can get that board out faster than I can out of a BF/SF amp, if needed.
Here is Albert Talley's 1954 Bassman board I removed for a complete overhaul. Came out a lot easier than the Twin Reverb and Super Reverb boards I have removed.
"Pedals are noisy and what's the point of having this KILLER tube amp just to run your steel through a solid state pedal running on 9V?!?!"
True, some are noisy. The Digitech Hardwire we use are noise free and hands down some of the best reverb and delay pedals you can get. David's pedals on the above video were not Digitech, yet I can't hear a thing wrong with the tone. He knocked it out of the park all weekend with some of the best tone folks told me they had ever heard. |
|
|
|
Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
|
Posted 18 Apr 2011 1:04 pm
|
|
I compensate for that lack of regulation by overdoing the filter caps. Using the giant sprague caps helps! Its not perfect - but perfect power supply design for a tube circuit really gets into a different price range. I am not going to build an amp with computer controlled bias compensation system like a modern hi fi amp!
The 135W twin is an ultralinear design, so naturally tone would suffer. Thats a lot of feedback to each tube - which is clean and more "hi fi", but too clean! We still want a little mojo!
Here is an inside shot while I was wiring.
Here is a shot of my iron:
nice and big! I think we are really splitting hairs here though - some people like the Tweed sound, some like the BF sound. Some like reverb, some like pedals. Some like to see the knobs on the amp, some don't. Both of our amps are louder than they need to be and are clean.
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
|
|
|
Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
|
Posted 18 Apr 2011 1:09 pm
|
|
Looks very nice, well done! Like the O.T., looks like the Tweed era. More iron, more better!
An interestng amp design to look at was Jim Evan's Compactra tube amp. It had a 6L6GC used as a tube voltage regulator. Jim was light years ahead of his time when it came to tube amp design.
I may be getting one in soon for service. Should be very interesting. |
|
|
|
Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
|
Posted 18 Apr 2011 1:20 pm
|
|
trace that sucker out! I'd love to see the schematic for that.
I have a suspicion that we don't really want voltage regulation though. We want it to be unpredictable! Even though its a bear to play steel through my tweed deluxe, at a low volume it really does sound incredible even with the sag and horrible inverter. The goal is to get just a bit of that mojo into a high powered amp and not have it fight back when you push the pedal down.
thanks for the vote of confidence!
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
|
|
|
Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
|
Posted 18 Apr 2011 1:24 pm
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
|
Posted 18 Apr 2011 2:00 pm
|
|
interesting!
strange that he would put a neon lamp in there. That design seems very doable - let us know how it sounds!
Just as I was typing this we had a little earthquake here in SF!
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
|
|
|
Mitch Ellis
From:
Collins, Mississippi USA
|
Posted 18 Apr 2011 9:50 pm
|
|
| Chris LeDrew wrote: |
| There are few amps that can take the place of a Twin when it comes to steel. It breaks up at just the right level. And it's an alternative to the Peavey sound. |
That's the main reason that I don't gig with the twin that I have. I don't like an amp to break up. I want a clean sound at a high volume. That's one of the reasons that I use a NV 400. Here is some info on the twin that I have:
It's a 1972 model
On the back it say's "300 watts" and "total load
4 ohms 100 watts r.m.s."
The speakers say "Fender" and "model D120F" in big
letters, but in small print, they say "James B.
Lansing Sound Inc. Los Angeles, Calif. USA"
As far as I know, the amp is in excellent working condition. Here are my questions: Is this supposed to be a good steel amp, Is it a 300 watt amp or a 100 watt amp, is it considered to have "Fender" speakers or "JBL's" and why does it break up at a somewhat low volume, compared to the NV 400 which has never broken up? Thank you,
Mitch |
|
|
|
Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
|
Posted 18 Apr 2011 10:14 pm
|
|
It's 100W. Kind of. As ken pointed out above, it's rare to get the full 100 but you don't really want it anyway.
It breaks up because the preamp is hot hot!
You may have an issue though - the twin should be really loud before it gets creamy. Like people asking you to turn down loud. What you may have is a cold bias - that can cause a nasty distortion even at low volumes. 70's Twins were run very cold from the factory - I recommend taking it to a tech and having him rewire the bias supply to blackface spec. That way it can be adjusted. I have seen silverface Twins factory biased down to 8mA! Thats not gonna sound good!
If it breaks up at high volume, you know with the eq all turned up and the dial at 7+ it's probably your preamp or tone recovery clipping. You can dial back the gain on that first tube or switch to a lower gain tube like a 12at or 12ay.
Don't give up on the twin!!! Once you have it tweaked properly you'll prefer it to the Peavey I promise you!
_________________
Milkmansound.com
Last edited by Tim Marcus on 19 Apr 2011 7:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
|
Posted 19 Apr 2011 3:46 am
|
|
The 300 watt rating is the maximun current draw from the AC power source and has nothing to do the with the amps final output power rating,. The output power is typically printed close the speaker outlet and the power consumption of the amp is printed near the AC power cord.
A good bias job is always a great idea. However, a lot of times amps are run out of headroom from the use of too much bass. if you prefer a bassy tone then find a speaker that is very effieient in the bass region and uses less amp power to produce those tones, such as a SICA, EVM15L, 1502-4 or other speakers taht are efficent in the lower range. It is far easier to produce low tones with an efficient speaker, as opposed to buying larger and larger power amps.
From an earlier post I did on SICA and other Neo speakers:
"As Jim Evans has taught us for the last 2 years in Dallas, a tremendous amount of energy is often wasted in the low setting of steel amps. That often leaving only 15-20 watts for the mids and highs in a 200 watt transistor amp.
What we hear at room levels is so different from playing levels. We need to hear more bass at room levels (around 70db or so) and we need far less bass to hear evenly at 100db. This is demonstrated by the Fletcher Munson curve on human hearing response at different sound pressure levels. At 100db SPL we hear bass as evenly as highs and mids. At room levels we must turn the bass up to perceive equal balance. Boosting the bass results in poor and distorted mids and highs, thus little power is left to produce those frequencies. In a complex waveform the highs ride on top of the bass notes, resulting in early clipping of them when the bass is expanded to max power. That is what so often burned out horns in two way cabinets, too much bass. It was the development of bi-amping and tri-amping that got the frequencies separated and put to their own power amps, thus saving the horns from destruction in PA systems."
 |
|
|
|
Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
|
Posted 19 Apr 2011 7:42 am
|
|
| Ken Fox wrote: |
| A good bias job is always a great idea. However, a lot of times amps are run out of headroom from the use of too much bass. |
thats actually an interesting difference between the BF and Tweed eras. It looks like they moved the gain around the tone stack. So you get the 12ay in the preamp for the tweed, and then they slam it into the tone circuit with a 12ax. The BF slams it in with a 12ax and then uses the second half of the tube for makeup gain because there are separate tubes per channel.
Its another matter of taste - both amps offer a good variety of places to adjust gain and get cleanliness. I have been experimenting with the gain setup in my amp to try and get the most clean gain possible without sacrificing too much volume - its not an easy dance, but its definitely worth doing.
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
|
|
|
