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Topic: Ceiling fan - a curious phenomenoN! |
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 10:44 am |
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Having grown up in the UK, ceiling fans were not a part of my everyday life for the first fifty years. I moved to the US in '98 and became aware of them - once I moved to Florida they seemed to be in every room!
It's a wonder that I haven't noticed this before now, but today I heard this rather odd sort of 'feathering', or, at least, an oscillation in the sound coming from my amp as I was doing some steel-practice. I think I have heard it before but have, up to now, failed to make the connection, but as soon as I turned off the ceiling-fan my tone returned to normal.
I'm sure there are lots of you who are agog at my ignorance, but can someone offer an explanation?
In future I'll be cranking the a/c even higher - to H*** with my carbon footprint!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Last edited by Roger Rettig on 5 Apr 2011 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John DeBoalt
From:
Harrisville New York USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 11:31 am
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It will mess up an acoustic sound as well. I believe it's the air currents created by the fan moving at right angles to air being moved by the amp or instrument your playing. Also there has to be some frequency clash. I hope one of our sound engineers will chime in here. John
_________________
Equipment: Carter D10, Zum Stage1,
Wechter Scheernhorn Reso, Deneve Reso, Fender Jazzmaster, Martin D16, Walker Stereo Steel amp, TC Electronics M One effects unit, JBL 15" speaker cabs,Peavey Nashville 1000,Peavey Revoloution 112, Morrell Lap Steel, Boss DD3 delay,others |
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Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 11:40 am ...leaving a trail
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| A musical foot print trumps a carbon foot print every time! I'm sure the Greatfull Dead would agree. LOL Don D |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 11:42 am
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It can mess me up trying to tune.
wa wa wa wa wa
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Brian McGaughey
From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 12:17 pm
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When I read your post heading Roger, I knew where you were going.
I cannot give you the exact why's, I've always chalked it up to the doppler effect as the sound waves bounce from the rotating blades, some sound waves getting slowed as reflected by the blades going away from you and some sound waves getting sped up by the blades approaching you in rotation. I may not be saying that technically correct but I think you know what I mean. Plus you get the normal wall and ceiling reflections, too.
We used to rehearse in a loft with a vaulted ceiling that came to a "V" at the top. In the summer everyone complained of heat so the ceiling fans, located right at the top just below the "V" would come on and mess with my intonation, kinda like a bad chorus effect. Didn't bother anyone else but I went crazY! |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 12:44 pm
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| The rhythmic increase/decrease in air-pressure will frequency-modulate all sound-waves passing through the area affected by the fan. With direct sound and reflected sounds passing through pockets of air with varying air-pressure, the result tends to be somewhat like that of a number of out-of-sync chorus-units - pretty bad. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 1:07 pm
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Well, I'm an old hand at this Forum business, but I have to confess that it didn't occur to me to do an SGF 'search'. So, thanks to Jon Light for sending me a link to an old thread. Buried in that thread was a link to an earlier thread on exactly the same issue.
No question - it isn't only me who's suffered from this curious 'doppler' effect! Thanks for all the replies and thoughts. I happen to sit directly under the fan and my amp is just to my right. Obviously I now know not to run it while I'm playing.
Sixty-eight and still a lot to learn!!! 
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 3:26 pm
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| if it weren't for ceiling fans.....I'd have no fans at all.....and they're a captive audience.....they never leave the room..... |
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Blake Hawkins
From:
Florida
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 3:47 pm
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| It's the poor musician's Leslie. |
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Glenn Uhler
From:
Trenton, New Jersey, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 3:48 pm Sound waves?
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Roger,
Everyone seems to be on the right track here. Sound from your amp comes out of the speaker in pressure waves (like waves of water) that travel through the air at the speed of sound. The size of the wave depends on the volume of the amp. The air your fan moves comes off the blades in pressure waves too, but they are moving much slower. Since they are both forms of moving air, they do interact and cause the sound you hear.
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1974 Marlen S-12 1968 Tele 1969 Martin D-35H |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 4:06 pm
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Thanks, Glenn - that's very interesting!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 4:58 pm
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Roger, put a placard on your ceiling fan switch and label it "TREMOLO"... 
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders! |
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Glenn Uhler
From:
Trenton, New Jersey, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 5:13 pm Basic ideas
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Roger,
Glad I could break it down into terms everyone could understand. I taught high school science many years ago.
Mickey,
A ceiling fan is the mechanical equivalent of electronic tremolo. Especially if you have a fan with three speeds and an on-off switch.
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1974 Marlen S-12 1968 Tele 1969 Martin D-35H |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 5:56 pm
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In fact, one way to get a Leslie-like type of sound is to put a variable speed window fan in front of an amp. For me, the main issue is getting the fan speeds low enough to be useful. I had an old, large, heavy-duty metal, 3-speed window fan to which I stepped down the voltages to get pretty close to the upper/lower Leslie speeds, plus one in the middle. It finally bit the dust, not sure if this would work so well with modern plastic junk window fans and motors.
Here's a guy who build a very rickety Leslie-style thing using a ceiling fan - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry9ORxbZUhI - sounded fine till it fell of the table. You might want to cut to the chase around 6:00 in.
I've seen people talk about this in various places - e.g., Tape Op has a mention here. |
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Gary Richardi
From:
SoCal, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 9:19 pm
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| ah yes, the old ceiling fan-Leslie effect |
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Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 2:48 am
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Dave, I had to laugh. People complain about a little single coil hum, and you with a noisey old fan in front of your amp. Ron
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Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick
From:
Clinton, Missouri USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 4:46 am
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I would imagine that most of you guys have played outside gigs with a breeze blowing across from the side, creates somewhat of a chorus effect, not to mention drives you nuts. Who wants chorus on everything?  |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 4:58 am
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Post-script:
When I took delivery of my beautiful Fox Vintage amp (about a year ago) I can remember setting it up and relishing the forthcoming work-out. Well, I was a bit disappointed as something didn't sound right. I shut everything down, went out and played golf, returning to my steel early next morning.
Wow! What an amp! The previous day's problem was gone and I basked in the glorious sound of the best tube-amp I've ever played.
I didn't figure it out at the time but, in light of yesterday's revelation, I think we all know what was wrong - I must have unwittingly been playing with my ceiling-mounted chorus unit switched on!
PPS: Jim Bob: If I'm playing outside I'll take whatever I can get!!!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 6:46 am
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| Ron Pruter wrote: |
| Dave, I had to laugh. People complain about a little single coil hum, and you with a noisey old fan in front of your amp. Ron |
Actually, that fan was not particularly noisy - certainly not any noisier than a Leslie cab, which stirs up quite a whir when running, especially at high speed. Also remember - I had throttled down the fan speed quite a bit. It was a very heavy-duty fan, and I was barely pushing it.
For me, it was a cheap, relatively light rotating baffle solution that I could easily turn off and move out of the way when not in use. I have carried around real Leslies (Leslie 18 and now I have a 147 baffle cut down into a smaller box). |
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Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 7:02 am hate fans
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Yes, it's not just a ceiling fan. Regular fans can dod it as well. I was enjoying a fan-less winter, but now it's getting hot again. This chorus effect really drives me crazy. It's a very ugly sound and I hate it. No one else in the band seems to hear it, however. Just the steel guy. And I thought my ears were going bad. : )
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To write with a broken pencil is pointless. |
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John Wilson
From:
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 8:21 am Use it if you've got it.....
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Put a variable knob on the switch controlling your fan and match the oscillations to the BPM on your recording project.
The faster you go, the cooler the sound......
_________________
Customer: "Waiter, how do you prepare your chicken?"
Waiter: "We usually tell them they're not going to make it." |
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Bill Fisher
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 9:03 am
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Hey, Roger: It's phenomenoN. Just thought you'd like to know, since I guess they don't have them in England. Ha! Ha!
Bill |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 9:09 am
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Bill
That's what was SO unusual about it - it was spelled with an 'M' at the end.
No wonder my sound was so bad!
 
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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