| Author |
Topic: Need help with building chords |
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 18 Mar 2011 9:54 pm |
|
Folks, is there an easy way, or easier way to figure out those complicated chords, like a Bb minor 7 or a G13 b7 9 (if there is such a chord)  I Just joined a Gospel group, and they are fantastic musicians as well as singers. The lead singer and guitar player likes to put a lot of those complicated chords in a song, and when I ask him what that chord, or those chords were he was hittin, he calls off some long chord, kinda like the ones above, that I have no idea how to make. I really want to learn how to figure these chords out, although I think simpler chords sound so much better than the complicated ones in a Gospel song. I know what it takes to make a minor chord, just flat the third note of the scale, I know how to make a diminished, and augmented chord, but these loooong drawn out chords just blow my mind. I know most all my scales for each key, and how to make my I 3, and 5 triad. In C my I would be my root or C, my 3rd would be E, and my 5th would be G.
and I know if I flat that 3rd it will give me a C minor. But how in the world do you learn those long drawn out chords without taking a couple of hours to figure them out? And I ain't sure I could figure one out in 8 hours time. Is there a short cut? a trick? are there substitution chords that sound close to a Bb 13 b7 9 ?? If so, how do you find them? Help please! Thanks
Terry |
|
|
 |
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 18 Mar 2011 10:43 pm
|
|
There are actually several questions there:
1) What does the chord name mean, i.e. what notes does it have in it?, and
2) How can you make that chord on your instrument, with its tuning? (If you can at all)
Or, since there may be no way (or no practical way) to play the entire chord on your instrument
3) How can you imply the sound of that chord by playing only some of its notes, and
3a) Which ones? Very often being a "substitute chord"
But question 1 is the key to all the others. You have to know how chord formulas work (i.e. what chord names mean). You can't answer the other questions until you can answer question 1. There's no getting around it. But it's really very simple, honestly. Any introductory book on "Music Theory" will explain this. You can learn all the information to understand what any chord name means in an hour or two tops. Applying it is an endless project, but the basic info is a piece of cake.
Last edited by Brint Hannay on 18 Mar 2011 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
William Lake
From:
Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 18 Mar 2011 10:48 pm
|
|
Terry, it seems to me you are dealing with a pretentious a$$. All those chords you mention are basically dom7 chords. A 13th is just a 7th with the 6th added. Theory-wise it should contain the 9th but seldom does. A b9 or #9 or 5th is just that. Just play a dom7 and it should be fine. Gospel is not Bebop!!!!
Just my opinion.
BTW I love playing those chords, but they have their place.
_________________
Bill |
|
|
|
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 19 Mar 2011 8:36 am
|
|
All Chords are basically a stack of 3rds. One way to look at chords is to think of them as "available notes to play". The various order of stacking minor 3rds and major 3rds is what creates all the available root chords. Stack a minor 3rd on top of a major 3rd you get a major chord. Stack a major 3rd on top of a minor 3rd and you get a minor chord. Stack a minor 3rd on top of a minor 3rd and you get a diminished chord. Stack a major 3rd on top a major 3rd and you get an augmented chord. Those are the 4 families of chords and are the basis for ALL chords: Major, Minor, Augmented, Diminished. Everything else is, as they say, gravy.
Let's look at a C chord:
C E G: a major 3rd with a minor 3rd stacked on top of it. What is a major third and a minor 3rd? A major 3rd goes up 4 spots on the chromatic scale, a minor 3rd goes up 3 spots:
Example: C to Db (1) Db to D (2) D to Eb (3) Eb to E (4) = C to E is a major 3rd. You go up 4 notes to get to the next note in the chord.
Example: E to F (1) F to F# (2) F# to G (3). You go up 3 notes to play a minor 3rd .
A major chord is a major 3rd with a minor 3rd on top of it.
A minor chord is a minor 3rd with a major 3rd on top of it: C Eb G. : C to Db (1) Db to D (2) D to Eb (3) (minor third)
Eb to E (1), E to F (2) F to F# (3) F# to G (4): (major 3rd)
A diminished chord is 2 minor thirds stacked on each other: C Eb Gb
An augmented Chord is 2 major 3rds stacked on top C E G#.
Those 3 notes are the Root, the 3rd and the 5th. it is a 3rd because it is the 3rd note in the scale. It is a 5th because it is the 5th note in the scale.
Guess what an additional 3rd means: a 7th. Add a major 3rd to a major triad and get a Major 7th chord: C E G B.
Add a minor 3rd to a major triad and get a dominant 7th. C E G Bb.
Add a major 3rd to a minor triad and you get a minor major 7th chord : C Eb G B.
Add a minor 3rd to a minor triad and you get a minor 7th chord: C Eb G Bb
Add a major 3rd to a Dimished chord you get a Half Diminished 7th: C Eb Gb Bb
Add a minor 3rd to a diminished chord you get a full diminished chord: C Eb Gb Bbb (equivalent of an A).
Want to go one more? than you are 9ths (since there are 8 notes to the scale, the 9th means you've skipped over the octave and are now playing the 2nd note in the scale - the D in this case): C E G B D.
Add another 3rd and you are playing the 11th (same as the 4th)
Add another 3rd and you are playing a 13th (same as the 6th).
A flat 9th means you flat the D in this case.
Putting something like a flat 9th just means that in the context of the tune at that particular time, you can play a Db note and it won't sound bad. The chord is telling you the notes you can play. You don't have to play them all.
Break down:
If you see a c7 #5 chord this means a c7 (major 3rd plus minor 3rd plus minor 3rd or C E G Bb ) but instead of playing a 5th, you play a Sharp 5th or C E G# Bb. In the course of playing, it means that if you play a G# within the context of this particular dominant 7th chord, it is going to sound as intended.
if you see a C7#11 chord it means a C7th chord C E B Bb but the 11th (which is the same as the 4th) is sharp: or C E G Bb F#
If you see a C9th #11 it means you play a dominate 7th plus the 9th plus the #11: C E B Bb D F# - all of these notes will sound right when playing over a C9th#11 chord.
That is all it is: break down the root and then see what changes it wants.
Last edited by Bill McCloskey on 19 Mar 2011 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 19 Mar 2011 9:04 am
|
|
| I should add you don't have to play the entire chord. How you "voice" a chord is part of your sound as an artist. You should look at every weird chord as an opportunity. All it is telling you all the notes that will sound good. Doesn't mean you have to play all those notes. |
|
|
|
Bill McCloskey
|
|
|
|
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 19 Mar 2011 6:30 pm chords
|
|
[/quote]Those 3 notes are the Root, the 3rd and the 5th. it is a 3rd because it is the 3rd note in the scale. It is a 5th because it is the 5th note in the scale.
[quote]
| Quote: |
since there are 8 notes to the scale, the 9th means you've skipped over the octave and are now playing the 2nd note in the scale - the D in this case): C E G B D.
Add another 3rd and you are playing the 11th (same as the 4th)
Add another 3rd and you are playing a 13th (same as the 6th).
Thanks guys I really appreciate each reply.
Bill,all of the above you said I understand that. like it is a 3rd because it's the 3rd note of the scale, and the 5th because it's the 5th note of the scale etc
and beleive it or not, I know that a 9th is just the 2nd note of the scale, an octave up, and the 11, 13 etc. I understand that, but all that other stuff, like a major 3rd and a minor 3rd is this, and a minor 3rd over a major 3rd is that, etc all that just blows my mind.
About what William said, that a Dom 7th would work in place of those chords I mentioned, like a Bb 7m 13
if that's the case then I'd rather just play a 7th or dom 7th instead of trying to figure out all the notes that build those loooong chords. Or if I could just play a couple of notes that would match the complicated chord, wouldn't that be ok? I mean since he's playing all the notes of a particular chord, why couldn't I just hit a couple of the notes in the scale, I don't figure anybody would know that I didn't hit all the notes, except maybe the lead guitar player. Thanks for the links Bill, I'll print them off.
Terry |
Whoops! Sorry Bill, I accidently skipped your 2nd reply. So, that answers my last question.
Last edited by Terry Sneed on 19 Mar 2011 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 19 Mar 2011 6:36 pm
|
|
Terry,
when you say it "blows your mind" do you mean you still don't understand it or that you finally got it?
just trying to understand because I can explain this 10 ways to sunday and one of the ways will turn the light bulb on.
Yes, if someone else is picking up the other notes in the chord, all you have to play is the dominant 7th (or for that matter any notes in the chord: a looonggg chord gives you a lot more notes to play). However if you want to emphasize the uniqueness of the chord, you might want to play the extended notes. |
|
|
|
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 19 Mar 2011 6:51 pm
|
|
When we are talking about a major or minor 3rd, all it is is a set distance from one note to another. Here is the chromatic scale:
C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B C
Start on any note and move over 4 spots: Major 3rd.
Start on any note and move over 3 spots: Minor 3rd.
Minor 3rd and Major 3rd are just names, that is all. They represent the distance between two notes.
Lets start on Db: go up 4 spots (D Eb E F) Distance between Db and F is a major 3rd.
Now lets start on F. Go up 3 spots (Gb G Ab). Distance between F and Ab is a minor 3rd.
Build a Db major chord:
Start on Db.
Go up a major 3rd (F)
now we have Db F
Start on F.
Go up a minor 3rd. (Ab)
Now you have Db F Ab (root, major 3rd, minor 3rd). you have a minor 3rd on top of a major 3rd. = Major Triad.
you jump up a major or minor third from the next note in the series to build any chord. |
|
|
|
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 19 Mar 2011 6:58 pm chords
|
|
Hey Bill, when I said it blows my mind, I mean I don't understand all that stuff about the major over minor 3rds, or minor over major 3rd etc. The simpler stuff I can understand. But I still have to know the notes of all the scales to be able to put in evcouple of them. If he hits a G 7m 11 couldn't I just hit a G note and a c note?
terry |
|
|
|
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 19 Mar 2011 7:36 pm chords
|
|
Thanks Bill, your last post is kinda sorta sinkin in my little brain. One of my problems is being able to
remember each note of every scale. I can do better on the C,D,E,F,G,A,and B scales, when I get into the flats, I have a problem naming all the notes in the scale. It's the whole whole half, whole, whole, whole half, that slows me down.
terry |
|
|
|
Glenn Uhler
From:
Trenton, New Jersey, USA
|
Posted 19 Mar 2011 7:57 pm E9th chords
|
|
Terry,
Take a look at Patricia Warnock's website. She's got a very nice graphic Fret Board Chord Chart that will get you started. For more, and a good explaination, see b0b's "Basic Theory of the Standard E9th Tuning" here on the forum. With these two, you can see what pedal, string, and notes change an E major chord into an E7th chord.
_________________
1974 Marlen S-12 1968 Tele 1969 Martin D-35H |
|
|
|
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 20 Mar 2011 4:53 am
|
|
Terry,
Yes, you do have to memorize all the scales, but there are some tricks.
One trick that has worked for me is focusing on the chords rather than the scales. I like to work from a diminished chord because there are only 3 of them to memorize:
Let's take this chord:
B D F Ab
this is one of only 3 diminished chords. Memorize it.
now. drop any note a half step and you have a dom 7th chord:
Bb7th is Bb D F Ab
Db7th is B Db F Ab
E7th is B D E Ab
G7th is B D f G
Once you have one diminished chord, you have 4 dom7th chords.
The second diminished chord
Bb Db E G (this is the second diminished chord.
A C Eb Gb this is the last diminished chord.
All you have to do is memorize those three diminished chords. Think of them as 3 family's of chords. Then drop any note a half step and you have the 7th chords for that family. |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 20 Mar 2011 8:36 am
|
|
Visualizing the piano keyboard is a good way of identifying the notes of a given scale. Of course, you need to have some familiarity with the piano keyboard! Not that you have to be able to play the piano, but even a drawing of the keyboard would work.
Funny how different people's minds work. I encountered that "seventh chords from the diminished chords" concept back in the mid-70's in an article about Pat Martino, and I understand it perfectly, but in practice it doesn't help me at all in thinking about music, or my instruments. |
|
|
|
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 20 Mar 2011 10:31 am
|
|
| Interesting Brint. It works really well for me but probably because my main instrument is a Flugelhorn. There is a physical uniqueness to each note that you don't get in a stringed instrument, so the chords become locked into your muscle memory. this makes the dominant 7th from diminished chord seem much more immediate. |
|
|
|
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 20 Mar 2011 12:37 pm Chords
|
|
Ok thanks Bill, I'll write those diminished chords down and remember them. ain't a dom 7th just the 1st 3rd 5th and a flatted 7th?
One more question. are the 1st, 3rd and 5th note of a scale, always in any chord, even the looong BIG ones, or not? Appreciate your help, beleive it or not, I am learning some stuff.
terry |
|
|
|
Geoff Barnes
From:
Sydney, Australia
|
Posted 20 Mar 2011 1:23 pm
|
|
Back when I was starting out, I was taught to let the ensemble carry the voices implied by the chord if it contained more than four notes.
The bloke who showed me this was into converting melody lines into chord sequences using what he called “upper partials”. This method acted as a gateway for further study because it broke it down into “bite size” chunks. Just made the subject less intimidating.
It also gave me 12 places to find that chord on a standard 6 string neck. (Some inversions more practical than others)
Initially you need to write out the sequence and construct each chord; Eventually it will just become second nature.
i.e. G13 b7 (9) looks like this;
G=1, B=M3, D=5, F=b7, A=9, C=11, E=13.
So taking the last 4 notes, I would play an Fmaj7 chord and let the bass player take care of the G.
_________________
Too much equipment....I think I need help. |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 20 Mar 2011 3:02 pm Re: Chords
|
|
| Terry Sneed wrote: |
| are the 1st, 3rd and 5th note of a scale, always in any chord, even the looong BIG ones, or not? |
By definition, yes; but not necessarily played. The root and 5th can often be omitted. The 3rd, on the other hand, is necessary to the essential "flavor" of the chord.
If the 5th is altered, that is, if the chord has b5, #5, dim, or aug (+) in its name, it is more important to the sound of the chord than the "natural" 5th is. In those cases, you wouldn't want to play a regular chord that included the regular 5th; leave the 5th out or play the altered one. |
|
|
|
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 20 Mar 2011 6:26 pm Chords
|
|
So Brint, If I just hit the root and the 3rd and leave out the 5th, those two notes would work in any chord? Or, if the chord had a flat 5 in it, or dim, then I would hit the root and the flat 5?
like if the chord was a Gmaj -5 9, I could hit the notes G and Db and it would sound ok, without having to hit the 9? which would be an A right?
terry |
|
|
|
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 21 Mar 2011 8:19 am
|
|
| Terry, the answer is yes. |
|
|
|
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 21 Mar 2011 3:49 pm chords
|
|
Thanks Bill, can't beleive I got that right. Now if I can just figure out the two notes I would need in any key, fast enough. I printed off your post that has the 3 dim chords.
I may have a problem remembering them though. At 61, I can't remember like I use to.
I think I said in another post that I had trouble with scales in my flats. Ab, Bb, Eb etc
Can't I just think, for the sake of helping my little brain think, when I want to figure out the notes in any flat, instead of thinkin Ab Bb Eb Db, just think A B E D and just add the flat when I figure out the notes? For instance the Ab scale think
A B C D E F G but just remember to add the flat to the two or three notes I need to use? Will that work?
I know that my 2, 3 and 6 would be minors.
terry
Last edited by Terry Sneed on 22 Mar 2011 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 22 Mar 2011 1:54 pm last
|
|
Well, I didn't mean to run you guys off by gettin a little excited. What about my last question?? Anybody? 
terry |
|
|
|
Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 23 Mar 2011 1:00 pm Re: chords
|
|
| Terry Sneed wrote: |
Can't I just think, for the sake of helping my little brain think, when I want to figure out the notes in any flat, instead of thinkin Ab Bb Eb Db, just think A B E D and just add the flat when I figure out the notes? For instance the Ab scale think
A B C D E F G but just remember to add the flat to the two or three notes I need to use? Will that work?
I know that my 2, 3 and 6 would be minors.
terry |
Yes, Terry, that's a quick way to get the answer when you're in the heat of battle.
For newbies: the reason you can do this is because of the rule that every major scale uses each letter of the alphabet once -- and only once. For example, a major scale can not have, say, a Db and a D in it because that would use the letter "D" twice. So when trying to figure out the notes, right away you know that you can just lay out the alphabet in order to get the beginnings of any major scale -- all you have to do after that is figure out which notes are accidentals (sharp or flat notes).
Speaking of sharps and flats -- and this is an aside -- the rule in music theory is that you can't mix sharps and flats in the same scale.
For example, if you're calling a scale "Db," then all of the other notes in that scale that are accidentals will use their flat name. If, on the other hand, you're calling that same scale "C#," you would use the sharp name for the accidentals.
See a "Circle of Fifths" for the list of which keys are usually designated as sharp keys (like G or D)and which are flat (F, Bb)... |
|
|
|
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 23 Mar 2011 3:53 pm chords
|
|
Thanks Tucker, I thought that might work, but wadn't for sure. That will help me out a lot when our band is playing in flats.
As far as calling some keys sharps, and some flats, I'd lots rather call Gb an F#.
Wouldn't your 4th in Gb be a Cb? I've never heard anybody say "Ok let's get in Cb ya'll  "
This thread has helped me a lot. Thanks to all who shared your advice.
terry |
|
|
|
