Knee Lever stopped working? (Emmons Push Pull HELP!)

Brandon Bankes · From: Zanesville, Ohio

Hi everyone,

I play a '73 Emmons SD 10, and while practicing tonight my (Left) Right knee lever just completely stopped working. I turned it over and can't seem to figure out whats going on with it. I push it to the right, as usual, and it just won't budge, at all.

I live in Ohio, and really don't know anything about push pull systems and this isn't the guitar to be experimenting on. Does anyone have any ideas or places who specialize in Emmons steel guitar repair?

The only guy I've found is Billy Cooper out of VA. I hate to ship it that far as it'll probably be a fortune..

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

There are a few things that you are going to have to fill-in-the-blanks on so we can try and help you figure this out.
#1 - As your guitar in an Emmons, I'm going to guess that you have "Emmons pedals and knee levers", at least your LKL will be E-F on stg 4&8 and your LKR (the one in question here) is E-Eb on stg 4&8.?????

#2 - When you say "it just won't budge, at all." do you mean that when you move the lever nonthing happens or it is frozen in place and will not move at all???

#3 - If the lever moves and nonthing happens, trace the linkage that is attached to the bellcrank and see if there is a collar that might have slipped or if there are the remains of a small spring that will be between the swivel on the bellcrank and the collar on the rod that might have broken in two due to metal fatigue. If I'm guessing correctly about your set up, there should be a compression spring someplace in the linkage for that change as it will be a "lower".

#4 - Posting a picture of the under carrage here on the forum would go a long way toward getting you some help to figureing out what is wrong.

Hope this gets you on the way to getting your axe back in shape! My S10 PP is a 79'
JE:-)>
_________________
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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

What Jim said. Details about which strings it operates, etc. would help experienced P/P mechanics help locate your problem.

I'm not very knowledgeable about push pulls, but one thing immediately comes to mind. If the lever is lowering strings, make sure the rod[s] it's pushing are still in the changer finger hole. With the guitar upside down, look at the changer mechanism where all the fingers line up.

This would be easy to spot, as the rod has a stop collar and you would see the portion of the rod behind that, that normally sits inside the hole.

If the rod has come out of the hole for some reason and is sitting on top of the finger, it might have pushed the tuning screw up against the guitars right end plate.

Maybe not your problem, but it's something to check.

Here's a link to an animation of how the changer works.
http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide.html
Hopefully, someone with more experience on these will come along with helpful info.
There's some good shots of the rods/fingers in this thread. Pic #5.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=129441&highlight=emmons+push+pull

Brandon Bankes · From: Zanesville, Ohio

Hi Jim and Jerry,

Thank you for your help and response. I'll try to be a little more detailed.

#1 Yes, the one that stopped working is my LKR (E-Eb on strings 4& Cool

#2 It won't move at all as in, I press it, with my left knee, to the left and it doesn't move. It actually feels like its caught up on something, but I dont know what. After flipping the guitar over and doing the same motion with the lever (trying to move it) with a little more pressure, still nothing happens and it feels jammed.

#3 I have traced the linkage and I can't find or see anything that looks out of place. I do want to mention that I looked on the floor and found half of a cream colored "washer" that looks like it goes with the other washers up under the guitar.

I'm at work right now but will post pictures when I get home tonight. Thanks for your help.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Brandon, Pictures should tell the tell.But check to make sure either or both of the push rods haven't slipped out of their slot, (hole) on the changer.If one or more has? That just may your problem.

Dan Galysh · From: Hendersonville, Tennessee, USA

Brandon, I've pm'ed you. There is a very good Emmons guitar tech, Charlie McVay, who works out of his music store in Cranberry Township, Pa., just north of Pittsburgh off of the turnpike. He specializes in push pulls and Legrandes. His number is 724-622-3514. I'm sure he can help you with your problem.
-Dan

Brandon Bankes · From: Zanesville, Ohio

Thanks for the help guys. I'm gonna see if anyone knows whats going on before I send it out and have someone else do it. Hopefully its a small issue.

Here is the lever that stopped working

This is a shot of where the lever connects to the 1st rod.

This is the piece that is directly connected to the lever.. its the first piece the lever comes in contact with.

A shot of the under carriage and the two levers.

This is where it feels like its being caught up.

This is the piece I found on the floor.

Any ideas?

Charlie McVay · From: Pittsburgh, Pa. USA

Hi Brandon,
Give me a call and please leave me a message if I don't answer and I will call you back, I work 3 different jobs. I should be able to walk you thru your problem over the phone, so you don't have to ship your guitar anywhere.
Thanks, Dan Galysh for your kind words.
Charlie McVay
724-622-3514
www.mcvaybenders.com
www.mcvaymusic.com

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I would look and see if you can find the other 1/2 of that washer. It appears to be a spacer for a cross shaft. If that spacer fell out, the cross shaft could get displaced and block the action of the knee lever. If this is the case, try and wiggle the cross shafts back and forth. If you find one with lots of slop, then that is the culprit.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

you've got to admit..this is the cool thing about a very special internet forum.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Brandon: Try reaching under the guitar and pushing on the changer finger for the 4th string, and then for the 8th string. Push towards the end plate. Does each finger go all the way to the lowering tuning screw? If it does, the changer is OK, and the problem is in the linkage before the changer. A broken string ball stuck in the changer might cause this problem? If the changer is OK, try working your way backwards thru the linkage (from the changer back to the lever) until you find something that is stuck or won't budge.

Looks like your steel would be a good candidate for cleaning and lubing the changer and linkages. First clean/de-grease with Ronson lighter fluid; then lube with dry formula Tri-Flow. Do it outside (maybe when the weather improves). However, I doubt this total and sudden blockage can be attributed to a gummed up changer and linkage.

Brandon Bankes · From: Zanesville, Ohio

Hi all, so far, nothing has worked.

I believe its not a changer issue, because when I push on the 4th and 8th string it works flawlessly as usual.

I can't find another part to the "washer". Whats interesting is that theres no other piece under the guitar that looks even close to what I found on the floor.

After posting these pictures I realized how terrible it looks under there, hah, so I put it to a good cleaning last night.

Still no luck guys. I cant even get the lever to budge to the left at all.

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

Brandon, this is twice now that you have said "it will not move to the left" - It is not ment to move to the left! It should move to the right, toward the changer!!! Smile

It should fold up toward the left, but it should move to the right when you are sitting behind the guitar! Smile

JE:-)>

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

"(maybe when the weather improves)."

Bwaaaa! Ya mean he's gotta wait until late May or June?

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

OK; try pushing each lowering rod towards the changer from its end near the key-head end of the guitar. (You might need to use some sort of tool to protect your fingers from the sharp end of the rods.) The rods should slide freely (although not without a fair amount of pressure) and the changer fingers should move to make contact with the lower tuning screws.

If each lowering rod is moving freely, try reaching between the various other rods and pushing both bell cranks on the bottom of each crank (on the short shaft that the lowering rods are attached to) towards the changer. Your will have to push/test both at once because the bell cranks can't move independently of each other. The short shaft will have to rotate for the rods to move.

If the short shaft rotates properly, and the bell cranks move the lower rods properly, then try disconnecting (loosening) the linkage where the rod connects the long shaft with the knee lever, from the short shaft with the lowering rods. Then try rotating the short shaft with your hand to make sure it is working/rotating properly.

If the short shaft is rotating properly with hand pressure, then check the operation of the long shaft that the knee lever is connected to. Does it rotated freely and smoothly? Since you have disconnected the linkage to the short shaft, the long shaft and lever should be very easy to move/rotate.

This is very simple to do, and it is very easy to reconnect or tighten the one bit of linkage you previously loosened or disconnected. Since the lever doesn't currently work at all, what do you have to lose?

If taking these steps does not expose the problem, then I have no more suggestions, and I'll shut up. Good luck.

Mike Cass · Posted 7 Jan 2011 7:31 pm

When/if you get Charlie to correct the problem you might want to have him install a 3 piece knee lever in the LKR position as your current lever is incorrect for the intended purpose. Direct to cross shaft 2 piece levers are intended for left moving applications and will make the travel a good bit longer as opposed to the correct 3 piece lever.
Ive seen the 2 piece used on right moving positions before and I believe its a result of the former lack of availability of some p/p parts or a repairman using whatever he had on hand at the time. I can assure you though that it didnt leave the factory that way unless specified by the original owner(not likely). Trust me, a 3 piece assembly will make that lever feel much better once the other problem is corrected.

MC

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Good observation Mike. I completely missed that.

Brandon Bankes · From: Zanesville, Ohio

Hey guys,

I just want to thank you for all of the help you have given me. I've literally tried everything and still no luck.

I spoke with Charlie on the phone earlier and am arranging a time to bring the guitar for him to look at.

Thanks again, you guys are all great!

PS - Jim, yes, I meant to the right.. oops. I keep forgetting I'm looking at this upside down.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I am real curious to learn what the problem was. Please let us know what Charlie finds.

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

Any update on what the problem was????
JE:-)>

Brandon Bankes · From: Zanesville, Ohio

Hey all,

Hah, more problems than we could count. The knee lever turned out to be the least of the worries - my entire under carriage of rods were in the wrong holes, missing pieces, etc. He fixed me up temporarily in just 3 hours (I made a 2 hour drive from Ohio to see him) but I'm taking it back in a few months to get a total overhaul on it.

That being said, I definitely recommend Charlie McVay for any of your steel repair needs. He very much was worth a 2 hour drive and I wouldn't want anyone but him reconfiguring my old Emmons.

He also took the time to answer a lot of dumb questions that I was afraid to ask anyone since I've been playing. He's a super super guy and it was a pleasure meeting him and hanging out in his shop. I very much valued the time spent there this afternoon!

Thanks Dan for the recommendation.

Dan Galysh · From: Hendersonville, Tennessee, USA

You're welcome, Brandon. I'm glad your getting your guitar fixed up. Charlie's a good fella for sure.

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