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Topic: Tapered steel? |
Mark Lavelle
From:
San Mateo, CA
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Posted 26 Dec 2010 12:21 am |
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Anyone here have any experience with tapered steels? My bro gave me one for xmas (7/8" base, 1/2" tip) and I'm trying to figure out what to do with it! 
-- Mark
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http://www.harmonicappliances.com/ |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2010 7:09 am
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| I like to play lap steel with a tapered bar. It seems to position your wrist at a better angle. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 26 Dec 2010 9:26 am I was particularly fond of mine...................
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I actually wore deep grooves in the surface of the bar.
I found it ideal for movement and easy to handle. |
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Brad Bechtel
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2010 12:29 pm
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They tend to lack a fuller tone a fatter bullet gives.
I've got one radically tapered bar that is virtually conical, rediculous to use. Makes a nice paperweight tho. |
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Mark Lavelle
From:
San Mateo, CA
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Posted 26 Dec 2010 3:02 pm
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That's where mine came from. I guess I can see where it might be good for slants, but it'll for sure force me to learn not to pick up the bar while playing. Pretty thin out there by the finger tips...
Thanks for that link, too.
-- Mark
_________________
http://www.harmonicappliances.com/ |
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John Bushouse
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Posted 27 Dec 2010 3:36 pm
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| Mark Lavelle wrote: |
That's where mine came from. I guess I can see where it might be good for slants, but it'll for sure force me to learn not to pick up the bar while playing. Pretty thin out there by the finger tips...
Thanks for that link, too.
-- Mark |
I find the opposite - slants are harder, because the sides of the bar aren't parallel to the slant itself. I also find it easier to pick up because of the shape. |
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Mark Lavelle
From:
San Mateo, CA
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Posted 27 Dec 2010 10:53 pm
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| John Bushouse wrote: |
| I find the opposite - slants are harder, because the sides of the bar aren't parallel to the slant itself. I also find it easier to pick up because of the shape. |
... and I'm getting the hang of holding it already!
As for slanting, the bottom of the bar is still a straight line, and I tend to think of my bar position in terms of where that line is under my finger, not the bar's leading edge.
-- Mark
_________________
http://www.harmonicappliances.com/ |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 27 Dec 2010 11:00 pm
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| Mark Lavelle wrote: |
That's where mine came from. I guess I can see where it might be good for slants, but it'll for sure force me to learn not to pick up the bar while playing. Pretty thin out there by the finger tips...
Thanks for that link, too.
-- Mark |
Mark, there's nothing wrong with lifting the bar--it is an essential part of playing, particularly for single note style. There is also a technique called "bar blocking" where you lift the bar as part of the blocking process. I lift the bar constantly.
If this is not what you mean, then apologies for my misinterpreting your post.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 7:29 am
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Years ago there was a tapered bar made by Chase.
I have a couple.
They were good bars but the chroming tended to pit after a while.
They must have been lead filled as they were quite heavy for their size. |
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Lynn Oliver
From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 11:46 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| Mark, there's nothing wrong with lifting the bar--it is an essential part of playing, particularly for single note style. There is also a technique called "bar blocking" where you lift the bar as part of the blocking process. I lift the bar constantly. |
John Ely, who I think of as a Jerry Byrd disciple, teaches not to lift the bar at all (he even has an exercise titled Unlearning Bar-Lift Style Blocking. Oddly enough, the few videos I've seen of Jerry Byrd show him clearly lifting the bar. I'll have to ask John about that sometime. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 12:05 pm
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I couldn't even imagine playing without lifting the bar, not on non-pedal steel. It just wouldn't work for me.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mike Bagwell
From:
Greenville, SC, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 7:39 pm
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I've never seen Jerry lift the bar as his usual method to mute the strings.
Some of my favorite players do lift the bar to block or mute the strings. That being said, IMHO opinion it not very efficient way of playing. It just wears me out to see it being done, its so much work and its not as clean as other methods. I've never understood its purpose, why not just do it with the right hand palm or picks?
Mike, you know I have the upmost respect for musicianship, it far surpasses my own, however concerning this technique I respectfully disagree with you.
Mike |
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William Lake
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 8:03 pm
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The tapered steels were designed so that when you dropped them, they rolled around in circles instead of across the dance floor.. 
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Bill |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 8:09 pm
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| Mike Bagwell wrote: |
I've never seen Jerry lift the bar as his usual method to mute the strings.
Some of my favorite players do lift the bar to block or mute the strings. That being said, IMHO opinion it not very efficient way of playing. It just wears me out to see it being done, its so much work and its not as clean as other methods. I've never understood its purpose, why not just do it with the right hand palm or picks?
Mike, you know I have the upmost respect for musicianship, it far surpasses my own, however concerning this technique I respectfully disagree with you.
Mike |
Mike, I would not say bar lifting is my usual method of blocking--no, I use pick blocking first, followed by palm blocking, but bar lifting is something I do as well. There is no way I could force myself to keep the bar down on the strings at all times, especially coming from learning to play in the Sol Hoopii style. I believe Joaquin Murphey was another who lifted the bar quite a bit to use the nose of the bar.
There is an interesting thread here in the archives where several players talk about Joaquin using the tip of the bar to play, saying it was the "old Hawaiian style." I believe it was Herb Steiner who said it, and then a few other players added that this was the way they learned to play. This is the way I learned, too, and can tell you that for single note playing it is very efficient and smooth.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Mike Bagwell
From:
Greenville, SC, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 10:05 pm
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Mike
Just as I feared, we are talking about 2 different techniques.
The method Mr Murphey used isn't what I think of when I hear the term bar lift. The bar is still in contact with the strings he's not lifting off the strings to mute, by using the nose of the bar he has a smaller contact area and when its slid up or down to the next string to be played the fingers behind the bar automatically mute the string. Another similar method works great when playing a decending phrase on ajacent strings, as you pull the bar back towards you the finger that stick out in front of the bar mutes the string that was just played. These are pretty common techniques used by most everyone myself included.
What I call bar lift blocking is when the player actually lifts the whole bar from the strings to mute a chord or a sigle note.
Watch Cindy Cashdollar or Lee Jefferies (two of my favorite players by the way) for a visual example.
Mike |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 10:17 pm
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Mike, I just couldn't imagine that players would always leave the bar flat on the strings. I have to say that I never lift the bar off the strings completely (unless doing hammer-ons, of course), but always leave the nose in contact with the strings. We'll call that "tipping the bar" then, quite different from "bar lift blocking" and "tipping the bartender."
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Matt Berg
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 31 Dec 2010 7:43 am Bar Tipping
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Mike,
Your extensive use of this technique is what has scared me away from your videos so far.
You do this very effectively, but it seems really difficult and foreign to me. You may wanna consider posting or blogging about this, for people like me with intermediate general skills and no tipping experience, breaking it down with some simple exercises and riffs.
Something tells me I'm not the only one who doesn't have this technique in their toolbag yet.
Matt |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 31 Dec 2010 7:53 am
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One of the differences between a Norwegian from Minnesota and a canoe is that a canoe has been know to tip on occasion.  |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 31 Dec 2010 7:55 am Re: Bar Tipping
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| Matt Berg wrote: |
Mike,
Your extensive use of this technique is what has scared me away from your videos so far.
You do this very effectively, but it seems really difficult and foreign to me. You may wanna consider posting or blogging about this, for people like me with intermediate general skills and no tipping experience, breaking it down with some simple exercises and riffs.
Something tells me I'm not the only one who doesn't have this technique in their toolbag yet.
Matt |
Thanks for the suggestion, Matt, it's a good one. Will do in the next week.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 6 Jan 2011 1:04 am
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So is it okay to lift the bar off the strings between songs and sets? 
A year ago I could not lift my JD 920 bar off the strings, which to me is very important on non-pedal steels, like playing single notes with the nose. So I am glad to be able to lift it all of the way off the strings with just my fingers.
I had always been using a Stevens bar with grooves and had moved up to the GS bar a few years ago but found that I got better tone and sustain with a "real" bar. I think that the grooved bars are great for dobro, and for what some people call "bottleneck style" lap steel. But to each his own.
I would like to see a Stevens or GS style bar with a bullet nose and a 15/16" diameter. Now that might give me some good sounds, although I do think it is easier to manipulate a round bar, doing forward and reverse slants. That might not be a problem playing pedal steel (I dunno).
I try to learn the traditional techniques but I put things together my own way playing my own music. I consider myself to be primarily a musician- at this time lap steel is the tool that I am using (not that I will ever give it up- it is way much too fun to do that!)
Steve Ahola
P.S. I got an interesting selection of bars with my 1937 EH100- nothing really usable because of corrosion.  BTW I got the Joaquin Miller book from b0b and there are plenty of hammer-ons using the open position like on a dobro.
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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Brad Bechtel
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 6 Jan 2011 7:38 am
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| Quote: |
| I would like to see a Stevens or GS style bar with a bullet nose and a 15/16" diameter. Now that might give me some good sounds, although I do think it is easier to manipulate a round bar, doing forward and reverse slants. That might not be a problem playing pedal steel (I dunno). |
One of the Shubb-Pearse steel bars might be just what you're looking for.
_________________
Brad’s Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 6 Jan 2011 3:59 pm
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| Brad Bechtel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I would like to see a Stevens or GS style bar with a bullet nose and a 15/16" diameter. |
One of the Shubb-Pearse steel bars might be just what you're looking for. |
I've seen pictures of the SP-1 but never saw one in person (or would that be "in mineral"?  ). What I had in mind was a full weight 15/16" bar sliced in half with a hardwood handle on the top. I just tried my Ginzu knife and discovered that it will *not* cut through everything.
I was thinking of using this custom bar more for pedal steel more than lap steel; I find it much easier to do the reverse slants with a bullet bar held between the base of my thumb and the tip of my middle finger- and forward slants as well.
Thanks!
Steve Ahola
P.S. A 7/8" bar might have enough mass. I believe that the GS has a 1/2" diameter. I've always wondered how they put the wood and stainless steel together and think I might have finally figured out one way to do it: drill and tap 2 or 3 holes on the flat side of the half-bar and insert threaded studs. A flat disc would then be threaded onto the top of the studs. The wooden handle would have "keyholes" corresponding to the studs. A strong glue would be put on the surfaces to be joined- in the middle not near the edges- before inserting the "keys" into the "keyholes", and the pieces then secured tightly by hitting the wood piece with a rubber mallet.
I had this in mind more for pedal steel than lap steel because I find it much easier to do slants with a bullet bar that you can manipulate with your fingers without having to keep it parallel with your index finger.
Perhaps one of the members here who makes custom bars might be interested in such a project. Not to cut into the market for Shubb-Pearse or Gary Swallow products- this would be a custom piece that they would probably have no interest in making. The custom bar builders here can offer really great prices because there is no middle man or expensive budgets for marketing, facilities and infrastructure. Let's hear it for all of the small builders here- and the bigger ones, too.
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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