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Topic: ontrak |
ebb
From:
nj
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Posted 2 Dec 2010 7:59 pm |
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paul redmond wrote
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On Friday afternoon, I put the finishing touches on the first of three prototypes that I've been working on for eons. All three feature a pull/release, single-finger changer system. I made up a foundry pattern to cast the endplates with strategically-placed ribbing and leg sockets. The endplates are hardened Almag 35 and fully-machined. The guitars feature a 24.50" scale, yet are only 27.50" in overall length. I used a George L's 10-1 pickup on this first one and their stainless strings. The body is only 7.00" wide. The wood is mechanically connected to the left endplate with an angle plate of sorts which also serves as a vee-block into which the stainless solid, gaged nut is seated. The "comb" for the keyless tuners is machined into the left endplate, then the angle plate is attached to it underneath, and attached to the raised neck portion of the Fender 400-like neck/deck insert which is made from North Carolina Yellow Poplar. The changer has no support struts. The axle is 3/8" diameter and made from a fully-hardened and nitrided mold ejector pin held in place with a retainer block on each end. Those two blocks sit atop ribs which were integrally-cast into the right endplate for that purpose. There is NO mechanical attachment of the wood at that point to the changer itself. The pickup is mounted solidly in its well. The right endplate has a row of stop screws behind the fingers. They act as either a neutral-setting adjustment, or an adjustment for lowers. To keep the screws from squirming, I used a 1/8" strip of nylon with undersize holes to act as a friction device. All pullrods are 3/32" and have nylon tuning nuts as any other guitar would have. I played a jam session with it on Saturday night...its maiden voyage. I have zero cabinet drop, and if there is any hysteresis, I have not yet found it with any of the tuners I have, and that includes a Korg WT-12. The frame rails were made from 1/4" x 2-1/2" 6061 aluminum angle fabrications, but I have since acquired custom-made extrusions eliminating a lot of machine work. This guitar has the fullest tone I have ever heard on a steel guitar. Using 3 FP's and 6 KL's, it weighs 22 pounds on the floor.
I must fully agree that maybe something was lost in tone quality as the changers evolved over the years which is exactly the reason I chose to digress to a single-finger, body-contact design, then add a basically free-standing neck and free-standing changer not connected to each other.
On the second prototype, the changer has been moved to the left, the solid nut to the right along with the keyless tuners. The changer fingers have been gaged on a slight taper to minimize metal, and therefore radius, material removal. The bar will sit flat at the first fret. There will be no auxiliary bridge or nut (or rollers) ahead of the fingers...only the fingers themselves.
I have just finished shooting a roll of 35mm film of #1 and will get some pics to y'all ASAP.
I have seen posts in the past regarding "short guitars sounding shrill and tinny". This guitar is only 3.00" longer than its scale length, yet has full, rich tone with no "dead spots" anywhere up or down the neck. I hope this one puts the too-short guitar body myth to rest.
PRR |
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Stan Schober
From:
Cahokia, Illinois, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2010 8:11 pm
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Looks absolutely beautiful , ebb, but dagnabit, where's the sound clips !?!?!?
It's nice to see you going with a pull / release system.
The hardware and machine work look impeccable !
_________________
Emmons S-8 P/P,DeArmond 40. Slowly drifting back towards sanity. |
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ebb
From:
nj
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Posted 2 Dec 2010 8:35 pm
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this first prototype is pauls own so he would have to supply me with a clip to host/post
i am just helping him with posting pics and such at this point
the second prototype, with the changer on the left side, will be mine and then i can control such matters |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 3 Dec 2010 7:30 am
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| I'm glad the "cat is out of the bag",,,,Paul sent me some pics and details on these guitars a few weeks ago and I've had a hard time "keeping my mouth shut",,,LOL. This looks to be the only "NEW" guitar to come along since ??????? |
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Doug Earnest
From:
Branson, MO USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2010 9:29 am
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| Now we are getting somewhere. |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 3 Dec 2010 10:07 am
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This morning I have seen this guitar and the Schild guitars,Something new!with serious WOW factor, I would somehow like to check them both out. 
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2010 11:40 am
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| Since this is a pull-release changer what are the limitations to the copendant? |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2010 6:46 pm
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I used a KL to raise the the B's to C only rather than install a splitting device on those two strings to pull back the C# raises to C. I find the lever far more useful anyhow. The system is raise-predominant which I have always favored anyhow. Tonight I'm installing the 7th KL on the guitar and it already has a lock which locks down #7 to E, then allows it to be pulled to F with 4 and 8. When the E's are dropped to D#, #7 pulls back to F#. When the lock is disengaged,#7 goes back to F# and stays put. I don't anticipate any major copedant problems or limitations. There are enough mechanical options designed into this guitar to provide almost unlimited copedant options. ebb's prototype will have 5 and 5 on a modified Sneeky Pete tuning. That's really "loading up" a 10-string guitar. I don't anticipate any problems at this point.
PRR |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2010 7:54 pm
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This looks like a great guitar. Can you further explain the following comment:
"The changer fingers have been gaged on a slight taper to minimize metal, and therefore radius, material removal."
I believe I understand that the taper is to allow for the bar to sit flat on the different gauge strings - is that correct? What material removal are you referring to? |
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Russ Tkac
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Posted 3 Dec 2010 7:57 pm Very nice!
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| Very cool! Paul are you going to have your E9/A6 10 string tuning? |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 5 Dec 2010 1:16 am
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John - If I had "gone by the chart" to remove material from the radius of each changer finger to conform to the string gage on each finger, I would have been removing a lot of material from the fingers upon which the "big" strings rode. So to minimize that radius reduction, I came up with a tapered approach. I found just which string would or could ride the "lowest" given the copedant, then worked backwards from there. I was able to gage the fingers removing as little material as possible, yet still end up with all the strings topping off at the same height so there would be no bar buzz at the first or second frets. This winds up placing the strings on an "angle" if their top surfaces were measured front to rear, in comparison to the frame dimensionally. The results are the same as if, for example, a set of rollers was gaged, but with minimal material removal from the radii of the fingers.
PRR |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 5 Dec 2010 1:24 am
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Russ - Yes, it has the E9/A6 tuning you referred to. It now has its 7th KL and the lock allows me to use the Sacred Steel chords. So it's well-loaded-up for a S-10. It will receive exhaustive "field-testing" and evaluation before being placed on the market, but based on present info, this thing has far exceeded all expectations. I will be very interested in how ebb's #2 prototype performs with its left-end changer, right end keyless tuners and nut.
PRR |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 5 Dec 2010 2:46 am
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Paul,
On your prototype with the changer as the nut fret, have you made the fingers thinner, to achieve the normal string taper from bridge to nut, or are the fingers the same width as the steel pictured in this thread, with parallel strings from bridge to nut ?
Do the raises bottom out on the body, or are they tuned with nylon tuners ? |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 6 Dec 2010 12:40 am
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Richard - I have never made a guitar with tapered strings. Mechanically it's just not right to taper their pattern from end to end. So they are parallel end to end. In answer to your question, the changer fingers on ebb's left-end changer guitar are identical to those on the prototype pictured above. I use a .330" center-to-center string spacing on all the guitars I have ever made. I have been asked on numerous occasions why I made the spacing so narrow. The normal average spacing on "tapered-string" guitars is about .344", but if you trig out the angle at which the strings are then "tapered" to the rollers, where you are actually picking the strings, the center-to-center spacing is still about .330". So when adopting the parallel-string concept, I chose that dimension as that's what everyone, in reality, is playing anyhow give or take a few thousandths of an inch up or down. If you were to pick the strings right ahead of the changer instead of ahead of the pickup, yes, you might find the spacing a bit narrow. But if you pick at about the 17th to 20th frets or thereabouts, you'd never know the difference.
The changer fingers are made from 5/16" stock with a .016" injection-molded 408L nylon spacer in between each finger. That roughly totals .328". I allow .0010"/.0015" clearance in there for oil bringing the total spacing to .3295"...close enough for country!!!
PRR |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 6 Dec 2010 12:56 am
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Richard - The pulls are dependent upon the nylon tuning nuts for their pitch on raises. On lowers, the finger bottoms out against a tuning screw in the endplate as on all pull/release systems. So, no, there is no forward contact made by the finger with anything. When held in "neutral", the lower rods do the holding on strings that are both raised and lowered as on all other p/r systems. When that "hold" is released, the fingers go back to the adjustable stop screws for the lower. When a raise is engaged, the raise rod(s) pull the string(s) away from the "holding" rods. When that raise is released, the finger(s) return(s) to home base and the finger(s) is/are held again neutral pitch. By adjusting the tension-balance spring on the "holding" shaft properly, there will be no return problems. If the tension on the spring is not sufficient, the string(s) would return flat due to the "bounce". At that point, the lower would be a bit too "easy" anyhow...the string tension would be equaling the spring counter-tension. So the spring tension is just brought up to a point where the lower is comfortable, yet when released, pulls the finger(s) back into neutral and holds it/them firmly in place and on pitch.
PRR |
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 6 Dec 2010 9:59 am
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That's very cool...I like the design.
How thick is the neck? Doesn't look like it's raised that much...
Is it single-lower, or are multiple lowers possible?
_________________
www.pedalsteel.ca
Last edited by Ryan Barwin on 6 Dec 2010 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 6 Dec 2010 11:24 am
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Thanks for the explanation, Paul 
I've got used to getting under my pull-release steels (Denley and Marlen) to tune some of the strings, but it is a fiddly job, so I can see the attraction of having nylon tuners, and not having the raises bottom out on the body. |
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Mac Knowles
From:
Almonte,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 6 Dec 2010 7:05 pm
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Good explanation Paul. I've always used nylon tuners on all the pull/release guitars I build including the double changer ones. I was just trying to see from the pictures where you have the springs for the strings that are lowered. On a regular old E9th tuning all of the lowers are on knee levers. I put the springs either right on the knee lever arm or on a bracket right next to it. Some guitars though seem to have another long rod attached to a long spring way at the far end of the guitar Just wondered where yours are.
Cheers,
Mac |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 6 Dec 2010 8:26 pm
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Mac - I sent you an email. The balance return spring for returning the D#'s to E is pictured on the 5th picture down in ebb's post. There is a small crank that isn't really easy to see in that picture, but I used a 1/8" rod from that crank thru the standoff shown in the picture, thru the spring, a small aluminum "cap", and finally to the adjustment nut with its nylon insert.
Yes, multiple lowers are possible on p/r systems. They're admittedly a pain compared to all-pull systems, but I feel the simplicity of the raises more than offsets the aggravation of lowering to two different notes.
PRR |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 6 Dec 2010 8:30 pm
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The neck is 3/8" above the deck which is 1/2" above the frame rails. The wood then protrudes into the frame 3/16", so the total thickness of the wood at its max is 1-1/16". I more or less patterned the wood design around a Fender 400, only smaller.
PRR |
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 6 Dec 2010 10:56 pm
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| Looks greater than great! |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 14 Jan 2011 10:16 am
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| bump it up...I want one!!! |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 14 Jan 2011 12:20 pm
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| Very interesting to see a design that permits flexibility in choice of tonewood. That opens things up for use of beautiful exotics. |
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Roger Shackelton
From:
MINNESOTA (deceased)
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Posted 14 Jan 2011 4:44 pm
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Hello Paul,
Do You Have Any Plans To Build A S-12U Guitar? |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 29 Jan 2011 9:02 am
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Paul!
Wonderful! How did I miss this thread? Steve T just clued me in. Exceptional work, as always! |
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