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Topic: E and F Levers With B to Bb Lower |
Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2010 7:16 pm |
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Can you raise and lower your E strings (talking E9th here) while using the vertical knee lever that lowers one or both B strings to Bb? There are some great changes that are possible by combining these pulls, but I see that many people have all three knee levers on the left knee and it might be hard to combine them. I have the E and F levers (that lower and raise the E strings one fret) on my right knee.
Play the chord that combines the A pedal and the F lever -- for example, the G chord at the 6th fret on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10. Now add the B to Bb lower. The chord will morph into a Bm. In other words, this combination will always get you a minor chord four frets higher.
If you just use the F lever at the 6th fret, on the same strings, you get most of the notes of a G7 chord. The B to Bb lower will turn this into G6. That's a great way to decorate a seventh chord.
If you engage the E lever that lowers the E strings, you get a minor chord, for example E minor at the 8th fret on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10. Toggle the B to Bb lower to alternate Em with Esus2. Switch to strings 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 10 and you have a Bm. (Good grips would be strings 1, 2, and 5, or 4, 5, and 7, or 7, 8, and 10.)
There is a cool seventh chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10 with the F lever and the B to Bb lower. One example is G7 at the 9th fret. (The best grip might be strings 6, 8, 9, and 10.) This seventh chord is always six frets higher (or lower) than the no pedals position of any major chord.
Then there is a diminished chord you get with the A and B pedals depressed, the B to Bb lower, and the E lever that lowers the E strings. One example would be Bdim at the 2nd fret on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10.
Or how about the minor seventh chord you can get with A and B depressed, the B to Bb lower, and the F lever, for example Em7 at the 2nd fret? (This is on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10, although the best grip might be strings 5, 6, 8, and 9.)
All this makes me wonder why many people put the E raises and lowers on the left knee. Maybe some of you can engage a horizontal and a vertical knee lever at the same time with the same knee, but everytime I try it at speed I lift the whole left side of the steel off the ground. I, as usual, am probably in the minority here, but I really like having the E and F levers on the right knee.
      
(Note: If your B to Bb lower only moves the 5th string, then leave the 10th string out of all these chords.)
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2010 9:04 pm
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| I've always had my Es on the right knee, and I imagine a lot of people that bought MSAs set up that way in the 70s still do too. Likewise, most people that started with Emmons or Sho-Bud probably still use their stock setup as well. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 1:52 am
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Most vertical levers seem to be so short - anchored so close to the knee - that it depends which other same-knee lever one wants to combine the vertical with if it is easy to do or not.
My LKV isn't used as a regular change-lever - it's a stop-switch for half/full raise/lower of E strings on LKL and LKR. The LKV is however rotating at a point near RKR, which means it is very long and moves almost straight up - no half-circle movement to talk about - so it is easy to combine with the same-knee levers it is controlling.
Shouldn't be much of a problem to push a short B to Bb "lever" riding on top of a long vertical lever like mine, to make same-knee combinations easier to perform.
My B to Bb lower is on RKR, and I have yet to add a switch-lever that'll allow me to combine it on-the-fly with the G# to F# lower I have on RKL. Such a switch will come in time, as I want as many pedal/lever combinations as possible within easy reach at all times. |
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 6:44 am Great thread...
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Barry,
Great thread, perfect timing. I've recently been looking more and more at my vertical lever that lowers my B to Bb. When I first got this steel, I had not had a vertical before and I could not reach my Vert and LKL at the same time I had the A&B engaged. So I pretty much ignored it. Then I made some adjustments and installed a Vertical Flag that allowed me to easily reach both. Since, I have been exploring that change and using it in combination with others. I have my E to F, LKL and my E to D#(Eb) on my RKL. I find this works for me.
Beginners Notes #146, is one example of my recent studies. My set up makes this move easy, at least for me. I think it is very important to have those changes easy to reach in combination.
Again, great thread,
Dick.... |
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Tim Herbert
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 7:11 am Vertical knee lever flag
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I hope I'm not taking this thread too far off topic, but Dick mentioned the flag on his vertical lever, and I'm hoping for more info. I can't reach the left knee vertical on my Sierra without raising my leg an inch or more off the floor, rendering it fairly useless, and it sounds like you may have solved the problem. Can you describe the flag, please? Thanks!
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Tim Herbert - Wisconsin |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 7:42 am Re: E and F Levers With B to Bb Lower
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| Barry Hyman wrote: |
| Can you raise and lower your E strings (talking E9th here) while using the vertical knee lever that lowers one or both B strings to Bb? |
Yes, easy to to on most guitars.
| Barry Hyman wrote: |
Play the chord that combines the A pedal and the F lever -- for example, the G chord at the 6th fret on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10. Now add the B to Bb lower. The chord will morph into a Bm. In other words, this combination will always get you a minor chord four frets higher.
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On open strings this is a very useful G#13 chord where for example you can sustain the midrange F# and B#, while playing the descending scale G# F# E# D# above, and letting everything ring.
| Barry Hyman wrote: |
If you just use the F lever at the 6th fret, on the same strings, you get most of the notes of a G7 chord. The B to Bb lower will turn this into G6. That's a great way to decorate a seventh chord.
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On open strings, this is C# major, bending the C# note down to B and A#, which I find useful once in a while.
| Barry Hyman wrote: |
There is a cool seventh chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10 with the F lever and the B to Bb lower. One example is G7 at the 9th fret. (The best grip might be strings 6, 8, 9, and 10.) This seventh chord is always six frets higher (or lower) than the no pedals position of any major chord.
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On open strings this is A#7 or Bb7. This voicing of the 7th chord is nice because it is so easy to bend the Bb note to Cb or C# for a b9 or #9 chord.
The ambiguity in the name shows the problem that most of us (not Barry H) have with this combination: the temperament of the interval between D and E# is not a pleasant sounding minor third, but rather an unpleasant augmented second.
Neverthless I do use this chord a lot by using one of these 3 ways around the problem:
1. Omit the E# note.
2. Add an octave between the problem notes D and E#, making the interval an augmented 9th (minor 10th), and slant the bar a little bit.
3. Play the F note on a lowered string 7 where it is easy and intuitive to temper it a bit sharper than the raised string 8.
| Barry Hyman wrote: |
Then there is a diminished chord you get with the A and B pedals depressed, the B to Bb lower, and the E lever that lowers the E strings. One example would be Bdim at the 2nd fret on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10.
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Yes, on open strings D# dim7, aka B7b9 with root omitted; I think all E9 plyers use that one.
| Barry Hyman wrote: |
Or how about the minor seventh chord you can get with A and B depressed, the B to Bb lower, and the F lever, for example Em7 at the 2nd fret? (This is on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10, although the best grip might be strings 5, 6, 8, and 9.)
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On open strings, Dm7. I use this a lot without the C note, but with B or C#, as Dm6, or Dm(maj7). But for the F note, I would use the lowered 7th string instead of raised 8th for better temperament.
I would not usually play Dm7 this way because the same intervals are available on the same strings, and better in tune, and easier to play, and with better notes to bend in and out with, as a C#m7 by just lowering the 9the string to C#.
| Barry Hyman wrote: |
All this makes me wonder why many people put the E raises and lowers on the left knee.
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My reasoning is that half stops are easier to manage if they are on the right knee. Those levers don't use half stops, so they go well on the left. Also I don't have a problem combining those with the vertical lever that lowers B strings. |
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 9:24 am Re: E and F Levers With B to Bb Lower
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| Barry Hyman wrote: |
| ...makes me wonder why many people put the E raises and lowers on the left knee.... |
I think its mostly because they learned on a steel with that setup. I did. There are valid points for different setups, and each has its pros and cons. Earnest's point about the half stops makes good sense why the typical Emmons setup is the way it is. Having E raises and lowers on different knees makes sense for other reasons, like a smooth transition between the two. A matter of preference though.
About the vertical lever changes, a lot has to do with position and height.
I had just recently posted elsewhere how raising the height on my Fessenden and lowering the vertical made it much easier to use with any combination.
Also, using the vertical when not using a pedal usually requires raising the heel with the toe planted in front of the pedal, so it can be tricky to move the foot onto a pedal while maintaining upward pressure, but it can be done with a little practice. Most of the time though, I use the vertical with pedals engaged.
Clete |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 10:27 am Re: Vertical knee lever flag
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| Tim Herbert wrote: |
| ...I can't reach the left knee vertical on my Sierra... |
Tim, Here is a pic of my Left Leg Knee Lever cluster. On my Sierra the LKV rests right on top of my Left-Leg, and is easily activated with a raise of the heel, pedals up or down. The Lever material is bend-able for a custom fit (I used a cushiond vice).
As you guys can see, it is also easy to use the F lever with LKV with a simple up-and-to-the-left move.
fwiw, The whole point of the LKV on an S12U is that it has to be easily use-able with every pedal lever.
My S12U lever setup for E raise/lowers is still based on Jeff Newmans E's>F on LKL, E's>Eb on RKR program, ala "The Universal E9, B6 Course by Jeff Neman Book 1" Jeffran Music 1980.
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 11:34 am
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| Quote: |
| Can you raise and lower your E strings (talking E9th here) while using the vertical knee lever that lowers one or both B strings to Bb? |
Yes.
In fact, my 3rd pet peave when it comes to PSG's, is NOT designing the verticals to be easily used in this manner. On some PSG's that I have seen, it is dang near impossible to do precisely (at one end or the other end or both) what you are describing. NO excuse for this malady. 
They should NOT pivot from either end. Rather; they should move straight up and down or pivot (2nd best) from front to back. Here is why:
The pressure required to engage them varies by where the knee contacts them. Sometimes this is always the same.
However, when using them WITH the downfacing knee levers, this often requires the knee to contact them at different point. This should not be. It changes the "feel".
Note in the photo below, one way of getting around this; where the vertical lever can be used with any one of 3 down knee levers. The pressure is the same, no matter where the knee contacts it.
And it is very comfortable:
C.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 11:45 am One more little goodie......................
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When going Universal in the standard setup, it means we must sacrifice the lowering of the bottom B to Bb; because this messes up voicings in the B6th(C6th) mode.
I hated this, because I use the lower Bb a lot:
Then I saw one of Mitsuo's new Univerals and I said wow, I'm going to try something.
Note the photo:
On the vertical that is on the left in the photo, I lower ONLY the top B to Bb. The other one lowers BOTH B's to Bb.
Note: Mitsuo did not do this. I just saw he had two verticals in between the cluster. And I would never be without it again. It is really great.
One problem: this may not work for those with overly large knees. I am blessed in this case to have small knees. It truly works like a charm.
Now before ya say, "But aren't those defeating the previous photo?"
YES it is, but that is only temporarily. I am installing (if I keep this guitar), a flat bar that will bridge both of them, (as in the previous post), it will pivot on BOTH of those levers. I can then transition any time towards one end or the other to go from:
1. The top B to Bb only
2. Both B's to Bb.
But....the pressure will remain exactly the same, no matter where my knee contacts the bar. 
Jesus willing of course,
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 12:25 pm
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In my opinion the vertical knee lever should have the F# to G change, not B to Bb. B to Bb belongs on a different knee lever. (I have it on my wrist lever, where I can use it no matter what my feet and knees are doing.)
As others have stated, verticals are hard to use, but they are much easier to use if you have some leverage against them. You can get that leverage by stepping on a pedal, and you almost always use the F# to G change in conjunction with the B pedal, if not both A and B.
I usually tell people that knee lever placement is purely subjective, and you put whatever change on whichever knee lever you prefer. This is the exception to that. I say the F# to G change belongs on the vertical.
B to Bb is an important change, but as I said earlier, it belongs on one of the other knee levers.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Paul Crawford
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 1:36 pm
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| I use a lot of the chords and changes but don't use the lever to get them. I just half pedal the A pedal as needed. It seems a lot easier to me than trying to hit the lever for a split. I do use the lever with an open A pedal with the F lever as a moving chord. |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 6:42 pm
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Wow. We be jammin! This is a thought-provoking thread! Thanks guys!
Jim Smith -- Yes, I got in the habit of having the E raises and lowers on the right knee from an MSA that I bought in '74. (Copedant thanks to Reece? Bud Carter?) I never had the IQ points to try anything different; I'm overwhelmed enough as it is.
Georg -- yes this is a mechanical question, with mechanical answers. One should be able to combine these pulls regardless of where they are positioned, and the ideal design for a psg would make every combination possible, comfortable, and easy. Maybe just the shape of a vertical knee lever would make it easier to engage both a vertical and a horizontal with the same knee at the same time?
Dick Sexton raises the same idea -- that it should be possible to re-design or re-shape a vertical so it doesn't interfere with engaging a horizontal at the same time.
Tim Herbert -- you should see the left end of my lightweight Willy float off the floor when I try to do my vertical and horizontal at the same time. High comedy!
Earnest -- I am going to print out what you wrote and take it down to the studio tomorrow and learn from it. And yes, with my ET tuning, all of these chords are slightly out of tune, but none of them are dreadful. An augmented second sounds exactly like a minor third in a perfect ET universe, which is what I would have if it wasn't for cabinet drop...
As for which knee to put the levers on, I think we all would agree that it doesn't matter so much as long as you can get the combinations you want. Good knee lever design might be more important than knee lever position?
Dick -- don't worry about "hijacking" "my" thread. The tangential discussions are fascinating and appropriate!
Clete -- I lowered the vertical on my Williams as low as it would go, but still have the same issue that you mention, with my foot in front of the pedals, raising the heel off the floor to raise the vertical. I can engage it by itself, doing nothing else with the left foot, but when I then have to press pedals and use the vertical at the same time, it can be a ragged transition.
Pete -- a bendable knee lever? That is brilliant! Might solve my problem. I can raise and lower the E strings with my right knee while hitting the vertical with my left, getting the chords I describe above, but combining the vertical with my left knee horizontal levers has been comical so far.
Carl -- another work of genius -- the "horizontal vertical!" That would really solve the problem, and make it equally easy to comine LKV with either LKL or LKR. As for lowering both B strings with the vertical, I am running Ext E9 so I lower both and it is not an issue.
Mike: Good argument, but let me repeat what I said before. It doesn't matter how you get 'em as long as you are getting the combinations you want, right?
Paul -- pressing a pedal halfway has always exceeded my limited capabilities. Maybe I get too enthusiastic or something?
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com
Last edited by Barry Hyman on 12 Nov 2010 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 6:44 pm
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duplicate post while the computers were malfunctioning
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 9:49 pm
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| Barry Hyman wrote: |
Maybe just the shape of a vertical knee lever would make it easier to engage both a vertical and a horizontal with the same knee at the same time?
...it should be possible to re-design or re-shape a vertical so it doesn't interfere with engaging a horizontal at the same time.
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My verticals are designed to do just that. The way this was accomplished is to have them extra long, about a foot, and have the fulcrum on which they pivot more or less in the middle of the guitar.
My Classic, the one I recently sold, and my 2 Millys are all set up this way, with custom made verticals. Sorry I don't have a picture. I'll get one in a day or two.
BTW this is another reason to put the F# to G raise on the vertical. If you have your E raises and lowers on the left knees, there are some occasions when you want to raise the F# strings to G in both the C# chord you get with the F lever and A pedal, and with the B7 chord made with the E lower and B pedal.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 13 Nov 2010 12:42 am
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| Barry Hyman wrote: |
| Maybe just the shape of a vertical knee lever would make it easier to engage both a vertical and a horizontal with the same knee at the same time? |
Exactly.
I designed the LKV specifically for ease of operation with any of LKL/LKR (and the foot pedals), and the very long LKV lever itself pivots (rotates freely) on the RKR axle without engaging anything at that end. A wide horizontal "knee-slide-plate" on the LKV resting only millimeters above my left knee, makes it extremely easy to engage and slide sideways on to engage/release LKL or LKR while also operating any two of (now) 5 left-foot pedals.
What the long LKV does engage is "packed" around the LKL/LKR axles, and the "B to A" lower pedal is situated there too so no problem making the extended LKV "half-engage" that change for a "B to Bb" change. The "B to Bb" change just isn't what I need on the LKV on mine, as I prefer to have that change on my right knee.
I'll add that my LKV lever with "knee-slide-plate" falls a bit into the body when the PSG is turned upside/down, so no problem closing the case without dismantling anything around the LKV when I'm done playing for the day/night. Such a detail may matter to some, so if anyone comes up with a design of his/her own some attention should be payed to "ease of packing".
When OTOH I need to do maintenance work on the mechanics, I release the left-going extension of the LKV that holds it at the right height in rest position above my knee, and let the lever go vertical - 90 degrees on/out of the body. Unobstructed access to the mechanics then, and "ease of maintenance" shouldn't be overlooked either. |
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Dana Blodgett
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2010 9:28 pm E and F levers with B to Bb
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Mike, I really like your wrist lever set up for the B to Bb lower. Does it fold down for any easy packing into the case? I have been thinking of adding this change and am not really into having a vertical for previously mentioned problems. I have the standard Emmons set up (3&4)on my old Sho-Bud. I'd like to have as many changes as possible but I like the idea of simplicity also. Was this wrist lever easy to get used to? Did you install this yourself? I think this is a very innovative idea!Would a bar slant cover the B to Bb lower or will that only work on two strings? I am recently back at the steel after being without one for 21 years. Did you have to alter the body of your MSA? Holes drilled etc.? Does it push to the right?
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Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme |
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Willis Vanderberg
From:
Petoskey Mi
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Posted 15 Nov 2010 7:37 am
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| On a typical Emmons set up, I like the B'S lower on the RKL. |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 16 Nov 2010 12:39 am
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good subject Barry
i had'nt seen it go by here yet
after havin to set it up properly, i manage to use LKV (B to Bb) along w: LKL ( E to F) w: ease
it's quite useful indeed |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 17 Nov 2010 3:27 am
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Like Carl Dixon, I didn't like having the vertical knee lever not lowering the other B string as I also use it a lot. My U-12 has a C# note in the 9th position and the bottom B is in the usual 10th slot. I lower the 5th string B on my LKV and since I tune my 2nd string to C#, I lower my 10th string B a half tone and raise my 2nd string to D# on my LKL. If I need to lower both B's at the same time it's easy to use my LKV and LKL at the same time on my BMI..........JH in Va
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 17 Nov 2010 6:17 am
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I had a Carter 12 universal a few years ago. I re-located the knee levers, to make it easier to actuate the vertical. The first picture shows the first version. The lever was too short and hard to use with the other levers. The second shows the longer lever, which worked very well.
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 17 Nov 2010 7:59 am Re: E and F levers with B to Bb
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| Dana Blodgett wrote: |
| Mike, I really like your wrist lever set up for the B to Bb lower. Does it fold down for any easy packing into the case? Was this wrist lever easy to get used to? Did you install this yourself? I think this is a very innovative idea!Would a bar slant cover the B to Bb lower or will that only work on two strings? Did you have to alter the body of your MSA? Holes drilled etc.? Does it push to the right? |
Dana, The wrist lever does fold down. And no, I didn't install it myself. The one in the picture was designed and installed at the MSA factory by Johnny Cox. The one on my other Milly was installed by Jim Palenscar, who had to drill a hole in the guitar. The ones on my old classics were designed and installed by Tom Bradshaw. Those use the hole where the jack had been. The jack was moved to a small plate installed under the changer.
The classics can be restored to stock. The millys can not.
Yes, it moves to the right, and this means that you can't chime while using it. Also, if you're playing way up the neck it can get in the way.
In my opinion, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. But I suggest you try playing one before you alter your guitar.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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