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Topic: Steel Guitars, Ergonomics, and Pads! |
Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 5:10 am |
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Any office place during the past decade has studied and implemented equipment with ergonomic design. According to Wikipedia proper ergonomic design is necessary to prevent repetitive strain injuries. I have a deep belief that "pads" upon steel guitars should have never been implemented. I have two prevailing reasons for this. Now, I realize there are those with the opinion that somehow the volume in a D10 structure as opposed to a S10 just sounds better. Really? Do you have scientific proof of that or is it just a opinion? Furthermore, if there is scientific proof of this is it within margins that humans can hear the distinction?
So for the sake of my argument we will work under a basic assumption that there is no real advantage between a D10 or S10 structure. Even if you believe there is then I want you to at least consider an alternative to these "padded" instruments.
To the point. First, I believe the standard height of most steel guitars for the general population is too low. I'm not a tall fellow at all yet I have to have all of my guitars raised 1 inch. This is because I don't want to have my back hunched over and my hand and arm positions below a certain point. It's just uncomfortable to me. I suppose steel guitars are so customized that it's like getting golf clubs customized to your height and arm length. Yet, in my opinion most steel guitars should be higher on average. Who determined the standard height on a pedal steel guitar? Next, I have a very firm belief that the use of a S10 within a D10 body is insanity! Are you kidding me? What purpose does the pad really serve the single neck player? Honestly it is extremely prohibitive. Of all, steel guitar innovations this is absolutely the WORST design ever invented for us steel pickers. It does the modern player a real injustice. I can understand this if someone who has played D10s there whole life and then decides to move to a S10 where they might "feel" more comfortable but I assure you this is not a healthy practice. Therefore, if you are going to be a S10 or S12 player...cut your guitar in half....ditch the pad...and discover a whole new world of dexterity and control! I promise you I know what I'm talking about here.
Next point, is actually borrowed from my experience as a pianist. At the age of 18, I was a fairly accomplished pianist entering into Berklee's School of Music. WOW! Did I ever have a lot to learn. My piano private piano instructor there spent a whole semester just teaching me how to sit right at the piano. I remember thinking what a nut job this guy was. Drilling me on how to sit at the piano, how to hold my arms, how to apply force to the piano keys. Are you kidding me? I thought I learned these things at 7 years of age when I first sat behind a piano. NOT! Turns out he was right! In a matter of weeks, he had me striking the keys in a whole different manner. Bobbe Seymour has always been impressed with my keyboard techniques. Honestly, I'm not that accomplished. I understand theory well, and I play okay. Yet, the trick really comes from this study of how to apply the force to the keys. It's more complicated than I can tell you in this thread. Perhaps, I will demo it on You Tube sometime. What this does lead me to though is the advantage of what the single neck player can accomplish with the steel guitar. To me, there is no question that I can play with much more control and dexterity on a S10/12 than I can a double neck or a 10 string with a double neck frame. The position of my hands and my arms are critical. I have sat behind many D10s and SD10s and I can tell you within in a matter of minutes I have to run for the Tylenol because of the pain and muscle cramps all over my body.
Of course, all of this is just my opinion. Yet, there are few individuals in this world who have spent more than 3/4s of their life behind one of these structures. So I'm fairly convinced. I encourage any manufacture to just simply discontinue these tragic structures with pads on them. Plus they are just doggone ugly as well. How you like that for an opinion?
For those who play D10s and SD10s then keep on living your life. So far I don't know of anyone who has broken bones from playing the steel guitar. Strained muscles and overworked brain power surely, but it is all survivable! 
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Greg Wisecup
From:
Troy, Ohio
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 5:17 am
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That dang Lloyd Green! 
_________________
Derby SD-10 4&5 Black!(duh)/
Derby D-10/Steelers Choice/
Goodrich 120/ 2- Katana Boss 100's
/Nashville 400
RV-3/ Zoom MS-50G
As long as I'm down in the mix I'm Fantastic! |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 5:22 am
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That's right, Greg! The irony of this is that Lloyd Green is my steel guitar hero! I wish I had half the character and touch of his playing! I wonder if he ever played multiple neck guitars in his early career. Anyone know? If so, it really makes sense to me why players who come from the 3 and 4 neck Fenders and such would like the E9 neck a certain distance from their body.
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Greg Wisecup
From:
Troy, Ohio
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 5:31 am
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I think I read here that he had a d 10 but just didn't need the c6 so much but liked the distance and lighter weight.
I started with an s 10 then a d 10 and settled with the sd 10. I like the distance in relationship with hands to knees, and pedals. I'm sure it's all personal preference or what you get used to.
_________________
Derby SD-10 4&5 Black!(duh)/
Derby D-10/Steelers Choice/
Goodrich 120/ 2- Katana Boss 100's
/Nashville 400
RV-3/ Zoom MS-50G
As long as I'm down in the mix I'm Fantastic! |
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David Griffin
From:
Jimmy Creek,Arkansas via Cowtown, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 5:38 am
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Zane: Some very valid points in your post.Yes,Lloyd played a D-10 early in his carreer. He removed the back neck because of weight & lack of use. I think SD-10s, have two things going for them;#1:it puts the pedals farther away from you,#2: the knee levers are much more comfortable & easier to reach. Like a lot of things concerning PSG,it boils down to what you are used to & how you learned. After 35 years playing a Sho-Bud LDG I switched to a single neck a year & a half ago & I found it much more uncomfortable. I just purchased a 12 string Uni that has a pad that is not as wide as a SD-10 & I like it. Maybe that is a good compromise.
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http://www.myspace.com/davidagriffin |
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Steve English
From:
Baja, Arizona
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 10:59 am
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I disagree completely with Zane's unsubstantiated opinions.
Not even thought provoking, and poor analogy to boot.
Sounds like a one man witch hunt.... |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 11:15 am
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I am most comfortable behind a double-neck body set fairly low, while sitting on a standard height steel chair. I can sit straight upright and the angles of my knees, elbows and wrists all feel perfectly natural to me. I feel the strain if the guitar is too high, the knee levers are set too far into the body, or if the seat is too low.
So I guess I'm just the opposite of you, Zane. Are you sure we belong to the same species?  
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 11:17 am Re: Steel Guitars, Ergonomics, and Pads!
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| Zane King wrote: |
the pad ... Of all, steel guitar innovations this is absolutely the WORST design ever invented for us steel pickers.
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Even worse than the "C pedal"? There's a lot of competition in this race. |
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Randy Brown
From:
Knoxville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 12:48 pm
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Personally I feel more comfortable with the knee lever and pedal distance away from me on a double body. But I like having the neck as close to my eyes as possible. I like the ergonomics of playing the back c6 neck, except I don't actually like playing c6 
Has anyone ever built a "reversed" SD-10 (or 12) with the neck on the back? That way you could have something useful on the front, like a cup holder, ash tray, etc. (half serious about that last part... actually it would make sense to have a music stand or tuner there though) |
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Robert Murphy
From:
West Virginia
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 2:36 pm
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| I play classicial guitar in an orchestra. My peers are classicially trained and their technic is far superior to mine and they play better. Eric Claptan makes a lot more money and is better known then any of us and his technic is awful! I'm having the time of my life playing steel guitar, living the dream behind a SD10. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 2:42 pm
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Somebody needs to tell Kayton Roberts that his guitar is TOO LOW. Since he outplays most of the pedal steelers I've ever seen, I'll let someone else break it to him!
Greg |
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 7:50 pm
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Thanks gents for all the comments. Interesting that so far in this thread today that I have successfully only brought out those "against". It's likely that we simply get comfortable with the guitars that we begin with or at least to some degree. True Steve E. that it might be a one man witch hunt! I can't help but wonder why the use of the padded area really came into existence. Really, that's not even thought provoking to you? I'd love to know the history of it. The purpose. The need. Not many instruments I have even known have such a piece in the design. It just seems to serve very little purpose to me. So far, no one has offered to tell me that a SD10/12 just sounds better than a S10/12. To me, that would be very marginal don't you think?
Bob - so you don't think we are from the same species? Funny. Really the height thing is likely much more irrelevant than the "padded" neck. The only way for me to explain this is likely a demonstration of my arm positions. For me the position of my left arm and hand is very critical to what I try to play. Yet like many others that's what I'm used to. I yield that others are more comfortable doing it their way. Still doesn't keep me from being a proponent of the methods I've developed or at least attempting.
Let's don't bother with the "height" comments. I would love though to hear more thoughts on the "padded" necks.
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 8:14 pm
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| Zane King wrote: |
| I can't help but wonder why the use of the padded area really came into existence. Really, that's not even thought provoking to you? I'd love to know the history of it. |
That seems like one of the most definitely known facts about the history of steel guitar. Has anyone ever proposed an origin other than that it started with Lloyd Green? |
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Wally Taylor
From:
Hardin, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 8:18 pm
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| I am learning a lot here that I never thought about before. Good stuff, guys. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 9:50 pm
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I with ya, Zane!
If I'm going to play a single 10, No pad please!
The weight and wrist freedom benefits outweigh any knee lever pacement and stability advantages in my book. As far as tone is concerned, I think the differences are negligible. If anything, my single neck guitars sound a little better than my doubles. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 21 Oct 2010 10:25 pm
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Zane, I think you are making a classic mistake here, of substituting yourself for the entire population. I realized long ago that I am not typical in any way, except maybe my shoe size... What feels right to me or you may feel very wrong to someone else, and vice versa.
There simply is no "right" way to sit - at a steel, a piano, playing six-string, driving, or whatever. We all have different body proportions, different degrees of mobility in our joints, and even more different preferences.
When I drive, I like to sit really low, but fairly upright. A buddy of mine leans his backrest to an extreme angle, and is happy with that. Another likes to drive in a position more akin to a kitchen chair, and that floats his boat perfectly. When I'm at my computer, I sit in many different ways and at different heights, depending on if I'm drawing, writing or doing layout work. And also depending on the time of day, what I had for breakfast, what mood I'm in, etc.
In short: anyone who doesn't like the LDG style, feel free not to buy one, but why try to prevent others from doing so?
Personally, I like the SD body style – and if it's right for Lloyd Green, there must be something to it. I would like a half pad size even better, though - but I'm not preaching about it.
Last edited by Per Berner on 22 Oct 2010 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 22 Oct 2010 1:14 am
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Another thing to consider is that Lloyd's E 9th SD-10 neck is a 1/4" higher from the rear deck compared to all other "loafer" models.
I've always liked the 1/2" neck differential on D-10 Sho-Buds better than the 1/4" on other brands, (but not enough to keep me from playing P/P 's & Zums as my main guitars). |
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Posted 22 Oct 2010 6:21 am Ergo?
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I started on an S10 and got used to it. Second steel was an S10, still liked it. I'm 5'2", 21 inches from the floor to my horizontal thigh seated. My string height is 27/28 inches floor to strings. My forearms are horizontal to the floor. It took me a while to get used to my SD10, seems like I was a mile away from my strings. And I like looking right down over them if I really get into the music. But I see now, that I was cramped up a little under my S10 and tended to sit back some, even as short as I am. I think for a tall player that would be a large problem. I also like to have my knees closer to me then my ankles, my foreleg not vertical. For me at least it gives better ankle and foot flexibility, probably because I am so short(and old). I might have been better served to have bought a new steel, going directly to the builder to get it and had it fitted like a suit. But then the cost. (Actually I did that on my first S10, thanks Clyde)
If I had found a deal on a half pad type steel such a Fessy, I'd be playing that now instead of the SD I am. More room underneath, but with less "wasted" space. And probably a little less cabinet drop.
Just my thoughts... One size doesn't fit all! |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2010 6:33 am
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Here's that Lloyd Green quote:
| Pete Burak wrote: |
fwiw, This is how the Lloyd Green model came about.
A quote from Lloyd from another thread:
"As a point of fact, and although no one has asked me, I do NOT rest my left hand on the pad, only the right.
This idea of a padded steel was my idea of a more expedient and comfortable way to do my job of cutting records and what that idea became from that point on was largely out of my control. The euphemistic "Loafer", which came years later was Ron Lashley's Emmons guitar version of the Sho-Bud LDG.
I never suggest any player use single, double or anything else. Everyone must find their own comfort zone with playing and it serves no good purpose that I can see to criticize those who don't follow others concepts of right or wrong playing. Ultimately, you have to play music on the thing.
Regards,
Lloyd Green" |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 22 Oct 2010 7:38 am
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Great stuff!! Exactly the kind of discussion I wanted. I promise you there are many players who have no idea where the padded neck came from nor it's intended use or non-use. I, of course, knew about LDGs but I was not certain about the origin and thus the development. No bigger fan of Lloyd Green than me though. Yet I still think the pads are prohibitive and unattractive for that matter. No one has to agree but I am entitled to pursue, share, and instruct my methods and approach to those who do. Respectfully submitted, Zane
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Dustin Cook
From:
California
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Posted 22 Oct 2010 8:47 am For me it's as simple as the size of my feet.
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| I have big feet . Sitting down, the distance from the pivot point of my knees and subsequent knee lever sweet spot to the contact point for pedals is farther than someone with smaller feet. Sitting at an S10, my toes practically stick through the pedal rods. Sitting at an SD10, my feet just have more room. As for the pad, I find it most comfortable to rest my right forearm gently, but the left arm never makes contact. |
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Johan Jansen
From:
Europe
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Posted 22 Oct 2010 9:51 am
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The problem with the pedalsteelguitars is that the kneelevers get higher when the steelguitar is raised.
It would be great when there was a mechanism that allowed a higher cabinet with the levers on the wished hight, but that has still to be invented...
Oh, and why is it always fake-leather instead of real leather on the pad?
JJ |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 22 Oct 2010 1:35 pm
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Zane, here is the straight scoop on Lloyd and the invention of the LDG and the rear pad, it is from an article from the Journal Of Country Music which came out I believe in early 2006. Singer/songwriter Robbie Fulks wrote the article, and he has had Lloyd play on a number of his recordings. Of course Lloyd played a double neck guitar prior to this, so he was used to the ergonomics laready. I located one of my old posts:
| Quote: |
Lloyd Green, in the fine article about him in The Country Music Journal, had this to say about the development of the Sho-Bud LDG, SD10:
'"I played sessions in suits up until the late 60's, and the C6 neck would unravel the sleeves of my coat. Well I went to my book and counted 595 sessions on the E9 neck in the preceding 12 months. In other words, in my last six hundred sessions, I could only account for five on the C6. So in 1973, I went to Sho-Bud and talked to Shot Jackson about the idea of changing my rear neck to a pad." Six pedals and other parts from the little used neck were put in a plastic bag and weighed in at 18 pounds. The resulting design of the LDG model, with its black Naugahyde pad over an absent fretboard, aims to preserve the double-neck's tone benefits, while eliminating entirely its high-tensile coat abraders, or "strings."
Reduced, on the face of it, to half of the musical hardware of most of his peers, Green proceeded to play all shades of country-including western swing (ironically) on his first post neck removal session for Danny Davis-with a single tuning. "Most (swing) players think you're impotent on E9," Green says. "You can play anything you want on E9. The problem lies in avoiding THINKING. You don't have to think as much with more pedals, more necks, more redundancy." He uses pre-pedal era slants to achieve subtle effects at a tight-rope walker risk level most players would just as soon not assume.' |
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Mark |
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