Combination Change or Reassignment?

Duane Reese · Posted 4 Oct 2010 8:15 pm

Has anyone ever offered/invented a way to install a pull that is made when and only when two or more select pedal/levers are hit? I'm talking about a pull that is independent of any of the other pulls assigned to any other of those pedals/levers.

Here's an example: let's say you have an individual pull that gets engaged, not when the C pedal is hit, or when the E-lever his hit, but only when both are hit...in other words, not an overall change comprised of the sum of the pulls assigned to those levers/pedals, but a pull (an individual rod/tuning nut) that none of those can activate by themselves (not talking a split-tuning either)...

Anyone ever come up with something like that?

Or, has anyone ever come up with a function whereby a specific combination of two or more pedals/levers would cause one of the normal assignments in the copedent to be nullified, and/or another assignment is activated? Not like a whole copedent shift on a Baldwin crossover, but just maybe one or two things being changed by the right two or three pedals/levers...

Duane Reese · Posted 4 Oct 2010 8:34 pm

I just thought of how the former could be done, but I want to know if anyone has already thought of something.

Actually, I think I know how it all could be done...

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Duane,

I have read your post several times. And I am not sure I understand what your question is. It seems you have left a word out in the first post. Note:

Duane Reese · Posted 5 Oct 2010 8:30 pm

Oh man... I did leave a word out, didn't I... The word "both" was supposed to go between when and are. I went back and edited it.

I think scenario #4 in your list is the idea I'm going for here, yes. You have been able to rig up something like that? Has anyone else been able to, that you know of?

Like I say, I thought of how I could get it done (with some custom-built hardware under the hood) but I was thinking that it might be a good idea for me to see what might already be out there.

If I had the ability to implement this sort of thing, I think I'd make it so that string 6 (on E9) would raise a whole-tone, not when the C-pedal is hit or the E-lever is hit, but only when both are hit. This would make the C-pedal act like the #7 pedal when doing C6 stuff on the E9 neck (I know where I can find that exact chord in three different places already, but it's never a smooth transition). I originally thought about having it on a zero pedal and working it with the A-pedal, but I just kind of thought of this idea... I don't know a time I'd ever use the C-pedal and E-lever together as they are, so what if...

But, mechanics that could do what we're talking about could open up all kinds of doors, in many different configurations. Just think...what if you could turn just about any useless combination of pedals/levers into something else useful?

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Duane Reese · Posted 6 Oct 2010 4:48 pm

Here's what I thought might work, mechanically speaking... Obviously this illustration is not exact or anything — like the pull rods would be coming in at angles and so forth — but it gives you a rough idea.

So anyway, you have that handy-dandy swing puller on it's own cross shaft with rods going off to the left, and a rod coming from a bell crank (behind the swing puller) with a rod going to the finger... The rods going to the left go to bell cranks that are on the shafts of pedals/levers that are assigned to other stuff; the bell cranks going to this thing are probably in the middle of the guitar or towards the back apron, somewhere out of the way. In Fig. 1, nothing is being pulled, and there is a lot of gap between the finger and the tuning nut. In Fig. 2 and 3, either of those pedals/levers, are being pulled, but as you can see, it's not enough to do anything; the tuning nut can't make it to the finger, and there is no load. Now in Fig. 4, with both activated, it can and does make the change. A shorter tuning nut may be required, because that thing would be sticking out the window quite a ways.

If you wanted to nullify a change, I suppose you could throw in a pull that would, say, lower it if something else is raising it, but I don't know how much room you'd have to play with there (distances and leverage would take some calculating). If you had a cable guitar, you could have a pulley doing the work of this thing, and it'd be real easy to make happen...I think. You'd have some slack in that cable though.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Duane,

I see what your cranks are doing. My question is:

What are the regular bellcranks doing in this scenario and what is the finger pulling?

In other words, give me an example of all the changes. IE:

1. Pedal 1 does this ..... ONLY

2. Pedal 2 does this ...... ONLY

3. Pedal 1 AND 2 does the above AND this .......

OR,

1. Pedal 1 does this ..... ONLY

2. Pedal 2 does this ..... ONLY

4. Knee lever does this ..... ONLY

4. Pedal 1 and 2 and knee lever does the above, AND this .......

I need to see a musical application or two, if you can.

Thanks,

c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Duane Reese · Posted 6 Oct 2010 7:15 pm

Well, I guess that illustration could apply to whatever one wanted to do...but I'll just use the same example I had in mind...

Let's say that the C-pedal has the usual thing, pulling strings 4 and 5 up a whole tone, but let's say there is another bell crank on that same cross shaft, out away from the others...

Let's also say that you have an E-lever that also does the usual thing, lowering the Es a semitone, but let's say that there is an extra bell crank on that cross shaft as well, also kind of out away from the other pulls...

Now then, let's say that there is a rod coming off that extra bell crank on the C-pedal shaft and going into the top of that puller I have drawn, and a rod coming out of the extra bell crank on the E-lever shaft and going into the bottom of that puller...those are the two rods going to the left in the drawing (and by the way, it might be better to have the C-pedal rod and E-lever rods going into the positions in that puller opposite from what I describe, but that's of no concern right now).

Now let's say the finger that the rod shown here is going through is the raise for string 6. It's attached to a bell crank on the same shaft as this puller shown is...no pedal or lever is directly attached to the shaft, just the puller in the picture and the bell crank hidden behind it.

The result is this: when you hit the C-pedal, it does nothing more than raise strings 4 and 5; the tuning nut moves closer, but doesn't move the finger; likewise, when you hit the E-lever, only the Es are lowered, but same thing — string 6 does nothing. Now, let's say you are doing some C6 vamping on the E9 neck and you have your E-lever in already...you want a pedal that will move your 6th to a maj7th and your octave to a 9th, and the C-pedal has what it takes to move the octave to a 9th but the B-pedal, right next to it, only moves the 6th to a dominant 7th (one semitone too few)... Well sir, now that you have this handy-dandy hypothetical change here installed, you hit the C-pedal (again, your E-lever is already in) and both rods in the picture are pulled, the shaft moves far enough and bingo! The 6th string is raised and it's just like having the #7 pedal from a real C6 neck.

New function, no new pedals.

See, if you just made the C-pedal bring up string 6 a whole tone in the conventional way, it would interfere big time with the normal operation of the pedal — it would turn the IIm you get from B and C into a major chord, and you wouldn't even have to hit the B-pedal. You wouldn't want to have that string raise a whole tone every time you hit the E-lever either... That screw all kinds off stuff up. The C-pedal and E-lever don't seem to get used together much (not for me anyway) so this function might do nicely.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Duane,

I see it clearly now. I am sure you have thought about what happens to the 4ths string, when the C pedal and E lever "split" the note to an F when used together. And if you have, it is apparently of no concern.

If this is the case, I can only see one other possible concern; and that is possibly a "travel" problem; where the 6th sring pull rod (may) not move enough to raise it a whole tone; when BOTH the C pedal and E lever are engaged together.

Barring that situation, I see noting wrong with it, and I believe it is a great idea. Try as I might I could not make it work mechanically, and you done and done it son. Very Happy

'Jes goes to show ya!

I also think it might be quite easy to install.

c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic

All times are GMT - 8 Hours	Jump to: