| Author |
Topic: Question for Universal 12 Players |
Dan Burnham
From:
Greenfield, Tennessee
|
Posted 10 Sep 2010 8:16 pm |
|
Guys,
I have a friend that is looking at going to a U12. I realize there are as many different copedents for U12 as there are car manufactures. My friend is wanting the closest tuning that will work for much of the tablatures that are available for E9 or C6. He's wanting to be able to take some of Buddy's courses and Herby's c6 stuff and learn it on a Universal. He has back trouble so a D10 is out of the question. Any recommendations would be appreciated.................
Dan (BMI)
_________________
BMI S12 Zane Beck's Tuning
www.danburnham.com |
|
|
 |
Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
|
Posted 11 Sep 2010 4:49 am
|
|
This is a standard Jeff Neumann type copedant.
Regular tabs will work fine for this set up if you have a fair grasp of your steel guitar and at least a little music theory.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
Posted 11 Sep 2010 7:21 am
|
|
Most of us (Universal players) primarily play E9, so we use the E9/B6 tuning. But for those who are primarily C6 players can use Reece Anderson's Bb6 tuning.
Both tunings work. Which one you use is a matter of personal preference.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 11 Sep 2010 9:43 am
|
|
The general rule of thumb for 10 string E9/C6th tab on 12 stringers is...
Read E9th tab from the top string down (strings 1 thru 10).
Read C6th tab from the bottom string up (strings 10 thru 1). |
|
|
|
Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
|
Posted 11 Sep 2010 11:45 am
|
|
That's strings 1 through 9 for the E9 stuff as the 9th string is usually a B note and the D is gotten by either raising the 9th string B to D or lowering the 8th string E to D.......
For the C6th stuff you just eliminate the 2nd and 3rd strings and you've got the whole 6th tuning, same as a C6th with a high G. If you like the one with the D on top, just lower your 2nd string to C# with the same lever which lowers your E's and you've got it. You can actually have the same as a C6th with both the high G and D strings.......JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
|
|
|
Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 11 Sep 2010 2:09 pm
|
|
A lot of C6th stuff involves combining P6 with the A to Bb raise (or G# to A on B6th). It's better to lower the 8th string to D rather than raise the 9th, so you can get the equivalent of the 6th pedal with a lever, and use the B pedal at the same time for the G# to A raise.
_________________
www.pedalsteel.ca |
|
|
|
Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
|
Posted 11 Sep 2010 2:49 pm
|
|
As a side note for your friend with the bad back.
I have a set of Hatton split cases and am very happy with this set up.
The heavy case is 35 lbs loaded and the pedal case is like 15 -20 lbs
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
|
|
|
Whip Lashaway
From:
Monterey, Tenn, USA
|
Posted 11 Sep 2010 6:38 pm
|
|
If he wants to read the tab for both E9 and C6, then he definitly wants to look at the E9/B6 tuning. Maybe even with the locking knee lever. You lower the E's to D# and lock the lever into place. That allows you to move your knee into another set of knee levers and play B6. To read the C6 tab just move everything up 1 fret. Good luck and God Bless. Whip
_________________
Whip Lashaway
Sierra E9/B6 12 string
Sierra E9/B6 14 string
Excel S12 8x9 blue
Excel S12 8x9 black |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 18 Sep 2010 4:53 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
Ryan Barwin wrote:
It's better to lower the 8th string to D rather than raise the 9th
(Mike Perlowin responded)I agree. |
I do this, but NOT because I feel it is better. I also raise the 9th string to a D with another knee lever. I would not play a UNI if I could not have both "D" changes with knee levers. Each, IMO, has a definite place and need, when playing a true Universal.
In fact, it was having both (and one other very necessary change) that allowed me to go universal. And I absolutely love it.
Notice the following copedent I sent Mitsuo when I ordered my 3rd Excel Uni. Look at strings 9 AND 8 concerning the above changes.
Note: LKL (front) and RKR (rear)
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
|
Posted 18 Sep 2010 9:39 pm
|
|
Nice to see you posting again, Carl!  |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 19 Sep 2010 9:36 am
|
|
Thanks Jim,
It is still VERY hard to return to normal life after my wife died 2 years ago. I am tantamount to being a hermit these days. I go no where and talk to (or see) few people. But my children have been anxiously trying to "bring me back to life". And one of them will not let up. Which I am sure I would do the same thing, in similar situations.
I am trying, but it is the hardest thing I have ever had to do. She was unique and truly an angel from heaven, sent by Jesus. Sadly, I NEVER really realized this until she was gone. So I deserve ALL the pain I am going thru.
I have not been on the forum for 2 yrs now. But a couple of weeks ago, I mustered up and got on to "see". Where is the "edit" button? I do not see one, and I made a mistake in the post above. It should have read "2nd Excel", not the "3rd" one. Sorry 'bout that! 
Thanks again dear friend, and may Jesus richly bless you, always,
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 19 Sep 2010 11:02 am great setup
|
|
| Carl, great to see you back on the SGF...BTW, your setup is the best I ever seen. |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 19 Sep 2010 3:32 pm
|
|
TY Brad,
That truly humbles me. For what it's worth, that setup is the culmination of 50+ yrs of trial and error, try again only to find another conflict and try again and find another conflict, etc, etc.
I find it almost perfect for me now. Not for all I am sure. But for me it provides what I want and most of all, "where" I want it.
I have tried every conceivable change in every conceivable location, I do believe. I venture to say that, it is highly unlikely I could ever change a single thing at this point. It simply has it all, at least for the way I play. Which is not very good, but hey, who cares when one is bald, fat and ugly? 
If a person was to have been a fly on the wall in my home for the last 50 yrs they would have seen literally hundreds and hundreds (possibly even 1,000's, I don't know) of "setups" (copedents) on and in every imaginable place. Even toilet paper! 
One time I was on an airplane, and I was looking at one copedent I was checking out and studying it in deep concentration. Unbeknownst to me, the guy next to me became very interested in what I was doing, because I did not move, just sat their fixed, playing (in my mind) all kinds of tunes, to see IF the copedent would allow me to resolve every phrase that I wanted to.
In other words, as one of the greats (I think it ws Jerry Byrd) once said, "In music, it does not matter much where you are going, or where you are coming from, what matters is HOW you got there!" I could not agree more.
Finally curiosity got to the man, and he sharply exclaimed....
"What in the hell is THAT???"
How does one answer that?  I tried to explain, knowing the slim chance he would understand. And of course that proved true when he said, "Well, it's all greek to me!"
Yep! 
Thanks again for the kind words dear friend,
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
Dickie Whitley
|
Posted 19 Sep 2010 5:17 pm Very interesting copedant....
|
|
Hi Carl,
To second everyone else, good to see you posting again. I've been staring for a while at your copedant. I thought I had a "complicated" setup for my next steel, but looking at yours I'm almost inclined to go with a universal with that setup. Am I reading it right that you have 4 knee levers on each knee? That's truly amazing. Best wishes. |
|
|
|
Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 19 Sep 2010 5:21 pm everything is there..IMHO
|
|
Carl, I like that low C#7th chord you have with pedal #4 on strings 9, 10, 11 and 12 and also that low Ab chord you have with pedal #6 on strings 9, 10, 11 and 12. With your setup one can play about any type of music...it is all there. Also the Excel has a great changer design so string breakage is history and one can concentrate on the music and forget about the mechanics...Carl, great setup and great Steel..you also made me a believer in the 12 string
setup. |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 19 Sep 2010 8:34 pm Re: Very interesting copedant....
|
|
| Dickie Whitley wrote: |
Hi Carl,
To second everyone else, good to see you posting again. I've been staring for a while at your copedant. I thought I had a "complicated" setup for my next steel, but looking at yours I'm almost inclined to go with a universal with that setup. Am I reading it right that you have 4 knee levers on each knee? That's truly amazing. Best wishes. |
Ty Dickie,
Yes, I have 4 knee levers on both knees. Actually there are 5 knee levers on my left knee, but in a somewhat strange manner. If you will note the vertical knee levers, they are BOTH in the left cluster. I call them LKVL and LKVR.
LKVR lowers only string 5 to Bb.
LKVL lowers string 5 AND 9 to Bb
On my first Excel, I only had one and it lowered only string 5 to Bb; which is pretty much standard on a UNI. But I wanted to lower both B's to Bb as I stated in another thread. Because this is what we do on E9th.
But.......................ya can't do that the way B6 mode is played, it messes up the other "6th" chords, so UNI players (and I formerly) sacrificed the bottom change. I never liked this, but Mitsuo sent me a picture of his new steel a couple of yrs ago, and I noticed he had two knee levers in the left knee cluster. I jumped at the chance. And It works quite well.
This is the picture of Mitsuo's guitar.
This is how it is on my 2nd Excel guitar.
But, this may not work for most, because of the limited space, but I have small legs (in diameter and length), so it worked out perfectly. For which I am thankful.
Finally, I have NOT as yet gotten real comfortable with that 4th knee lever on my right knee. Three I did get comfortable with after fighting it for a while. But 4 I am not sure yet. IF I can't live with it, I will combine the 2 RKL's thusly:
raise 1 a whole tone
raise 2 a half tone
lower 6 a whole tone
lower 10 a whole tone
I do NOT want to do this, because those changes on strings 1 and 2 messes up the chord when using the lowers on strings 6 and 10. But...........
Thanks again for the welcome friend,
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
Dickie Whitley
|
Posted 20 Sep 2010 2:12 am Wow...
|
|
...that is some very impressive hardware on that steel. Again, I'm very tempted on going Uni since just about everything I do is for E9th, plus the weight savings would probably do wonders for my back as Dan mentioned in the first post.
My apologies Dan, didn't mean to hijack your post, I just got very interested in Carl's setup.
Thank you Carl for taking the time to discuss, much appreciated. |
|
|
|
Dan Burnham
From:
Greenfield, Tennessee
|
Posted 20 Sep 2010 4:45 am That's OK
|
|
Dickie,
That's ok. Carl, that's a beautiful setup. Most impressive. I'll pass on the information to my friend.
Dan
_________________
BMI S12 Zane Beck's Tuning
www.danburnham.com |
|
|
|
Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
|
Posted 20 Sep 2010 10:03 am
|
|
I just noticed an error in my copedant post.
my 6th pedal lowers 8th string to D
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
|
|
|
Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
|
Posted 20 Sep 2010 3:14 pm
|
|
I too want to join the chorus welcoming Carl back to the Forum !! I know what he means about loosing his wife because the same happened to me two and a half years ago. Hermit is barely the word I have become for unlike Carl, I can no longer stand to listen to the music from years behind me. It simply breaks me up...
They do say something about time heals all wounds but I wonder if I have that much left.
Be looking for those blue posts, Carl... do keep them coming. I can still read and enjoy your musical life !!
Regards, Paul |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 20 Sep 2010 4:57 pm
|
|
TY Paul. We have much in common now.
Luv ya dear friend. May Jesus bring you comfort always,
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 21 Sep 2010 10:57 am not always needed.
|
|
| Carl, the nice thing about knee levers is that you can fold them back if they get in your way....they are not all needed for every song you play..but they are there when you need them for a certain song. I have seven on my Steel and two of them are folded back most of the time. |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 21 Sep 2010 11:43 am Re: Wow...
|
|
| Dickie Whitley wrote: |
...that is some very impressive hardware on that steel. Again, I'm very tempted on going Uni since just about everything I do is for E9th, plus the weight savings would probably do wonders for my back as Dan mentioned in the first post.
My apologies Dan, didn't mean to hijack your post, I just got very interested in Carl's setup.
Thank you Carl for taking the time to discuss, much appreciated. |
Dickie, you are most welcome. And I now see that I may have hijacked this thread. And of all things, that is a pet peave of mine, and then I go do it. "jes shows to go ya!" 
| Quote: |
Dickie,
That's ok. Carl, that's a beautiful setup. Most impressive. I'll pass on the information to my friend.
Dan |
Dan, thanks for the comments. IF ya want, I will be happy to point out some other things that are interesting about that set up, which may not be apparent. Also the same goes for the guitar itself. But only if you assure me it is ok, since that is NOT within the topic of this thread.
| Quote: |
| Carl, the nice thing about knee levers is that you can fold them back if they get in your way....they are not all needed for every song you play..but they are there when you need them for a certain song. I have seven on my Steel and two of them are folded back most of the time. |
Ya know Brad, that is a GREAT idea. Truly I never gave that any thought. Thank you dear brother.
May Jesus bless you all; and may he bring each of you comfort and joy always,
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
Dickie Whitley
|
Posted 21 Sep 2010 3:28 pm Jeff's E9/B6 course...
|
|
Dan,
You might also see if your friend would be interested in Jeff's E9/B6 course. I've been looking at getting it myself. |
|
|
|
