How to........

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

I laid out of the last thread on "string popper". It was interesting to see my inputs from previous similar posts/threads being referenced.

I do not recall where I indicated that the length of string beyond the nut, or the bridge, required an increase in tension to get a string to pitch...it does not.

String breakage for a given string material and gauge, will vary with the required tension to get to pitch. The required tension will vary with the nut to bridge length = higher pitch, or longer neck, will put more tension on the string.

Beyond that, the sharpness of bend over the changer fingers or nut will affect string life = sharper bends gives shorter life, all else being equal.

And then, more importantly, the string will be more likely to break if it is subject to repeated tension changes around a corner = changer finger radius. That is why most E9 string #3 G#s break there. The more, and faster, you pedal this string, the sooner it will break. The G# has both the highest tension per unit of cross sectional area (pounds pull per square inch), and amount of stretch per halftone of pitch change.

HOW TO = if you want to measure these parameters on your instrument, get a 50 pound digital fish scale, and a set of digital calipers and run the tension/stretch/pitch experiments. If you have access to an infra red camera (heat sensing) you can get a feel for the amount of heat generated on the various strings by the amount/speed of change activation. Which one do you think generates the most heat? (think "work")= the same one that breaks most often, and right where the heat is greatest.

Now about the tone/sustain/harmonic/bell/etc. thing...these, also can be measured. The units will be harmonic content vs. time, in one form or another. The equipment needed is available in many computer soft-wares for recording, but usually not with the appropriate controls and data processing capabilities.

With the appropriate computer program, the instrument harmonics (as provided from the pickup) can be captured and seen/analyzed. This method provides a way to see the amount of harmonics in a single string, to all strings at once, and as a function of their tension, where and how they are excited (picked/hammered), where the pickup is located, etc.. The basic program costs less than your volume pedal (pot type). The program provides a Frequency Spectrum Analyzer, and Oscilloscope in one package. It is used for acoustic design from speaker cabinets to room size/shape/material compensation.

Using these methods, the "qualities" of the various PSGs may be quantified and compared. These results may then be correlated with construction materials and practices...such as bridge/nut materials, active string length, body/changer materials, connection, et. al.

Most pickers won't be interested in the described approaches...they are into picking, not analyzing. Many of them hear things that the rest of us do not, particularly when they are two feet away from their amp, and we are 90 ft. away in a crowded auditorium, and at the mercy of the sound board/man. They need their "sound" for inspired playing.

The preferred sound, hence instrument, hence tuning method, will vary with the player and his style of music...one size does not fit all!

The instrumentation methods can measure repeatably to a level and resolution that the ear cannot hear...check with your local Physiologist...I seem to remember that the best for the senses is about one part in forty under ideal conditions (someone please update my memory).

PSGs are sort of like religion and politics...lots of words, opinions, buzz terms, emotional proclamations, cute sounding phrases, and very little fact involved...I am practicing to be the world's champion cynic...flame away if you feel the need!

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Ed, you're doing some great work! I think the Emmons and the Zumsteel have a similar sound, so I'd also like to see a study of how one can modify the tone of say, a Zumsteel, with a graphic equalizer so as to duplicate (or approximate) the tone of another guitar, such as the Emmons Legrande. So far (I believe), you have been comparing guitar sounds based on the guitar alone, and I'd like to see a study done to see if significant differences in tone still exist after we add EQ to the situation.

Joseph Meditz · From: Sierra Vista, AZ

Ed's graphs are time frequency plots. The frequency response at a given time can be adjusted with an equalizer. However, since the shape of the freq resp curve does not remain constant, the equalizer would have to change from the time of attack and throughout decay. This could be done on a digital signal processor.
http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/edpackard/?

The question for Ed is: Using your measurement data, do you think that one could make a box that you plug your steel into that will make it sound like JD's Emmons? Now that would be something!

Joe

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

I think that JM has addressed DH's concern. Re JM's question, yes, an emulator could be made to make, say a Sho Bud XXX sound like an Emmons YYY, but not sound like Jay Dee, Buddy, or ZZZ.

JM...if you want to see many more charts on the various instruments, and talk shop, go to Jim Palenscar's North County Steel shop in Oceanside, and have him fire up the CD I sent to him.

I will get back to the instrument comparisons as put up in Photobucket after a bit...busy now on a definitive chord location document for the B Emmons E9 10 string (also 12 & 14).

[This message was edited by ed packard on 28 June 2006 at 09:53 AM.]

C. Christofferson · Posted 29 Jun 2006 9:56 am

Ed, On a slightly related topic, a page from my 'modified' steel demo 'cause you may not have seen it when it was posted. p.s. i haven't noticed any increase in frq. of string breakage.
After reading 'string popper' i'm glad you mentioned that breakage has largely to do with bending/straightening fatigue over the changer. After all, a string can be stretched way too tense but if it just sits there it might last fifty years.
Maybe a changer could be made so that it pulls the string tighter - but in a straight line - without bending around anything - would this 'eliminate' string breakiage? Well...it would still fatigue a little over the nut. www.geocities.com/steelpicks19/scale

[This message was edited by C. Christofferson on 29 June 2006 at 10:58 AM.]

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

CC....I use a 27.930" scale on the BEAST = 25" scale extended by several frets and tuned down several halftones (re your referenced web page).

The Excel, and Anapeg instruments use a changer that pulls partially straight. My BEAST has very shallow angles where the string crosses the bridge and nut, but still uses the rotating changer.

There are several makes of PSG that do not wrap the string around the changer finger.

In my opinion, shallow angles are easier on strings, particularly the E9 string #3 G#, than the tight wrap approach.

David Doggett · Posted 29 Jun 2006 2:22 pm

Good information, Ed. Thanks

Curt Langston · Posted 29 Jun 2006 3:39 pm

Oops! Sorry Ed. I was referring to a post between Carl Dixon and Buddy Emmons. I got the posts mixed up.

quote:
Buddy Emmons
Member
From: Hermitage, TN USA
posted 08 January 2005 09:54 AM profile edit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl,
In reference to your earlier post, my only experience with the 25” scale other than the Sierra was when Shot Jackson and I were building Sho~Buds. It was during the time the high G# was added to the tuning that we encountered the string breakage problem and had to reduce the scale 24 ½ inches.
To be different than Sho~Bud and possibly reduce string breakage even more, I had fifty 24 ¼” Emmons atom fret boards made in Nashville and gave them to Ron to use on the first guitars. By that time, the Sho~Bud fret board had proven that the longer scale didn’t work so there was no need to experiment with the Emmons guitar. Ron had built a Sho~Bud clone prior to my meeting him and may have been referring to that guitar, but the Emmons guitar started at 24 ¼” and stayed there.

Billy… Regarding the topic, I prefer the keyless sound. Jeff Newman had a great sounding Kline keyless S-12 he used during seminars he and I held. We had just finished playing a phrase for the class and while they were absorbing it, Jeff smiled and leaned over and said, “Why does my guitar sound better than yours?” His Kline did have a cleaner sound but I wasn’t about to admit it so I replied, “Because you have a tin ear.” His face flushed and all he could do was force a chuckle. It was one of the few times I ever saw Jeff at a loss for words.

Ed, that was my point about keyed guitars maxing out at 24 1/4.
Sorry for the misquote.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 29 June 2006 at 04:40 PM.]

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Curt...No big thing, it gave a chance for posting an overview/summation.

The quoted passage from Big E was valid at bthe time frame that he covered, but it seems that a bit of work was done on thin strings afterward. Bill Stafford used G#s on his Sierras, and his Excel, both with a 25.5" scale and tuned to E. They were/are both keyless.

A few years back (and maybe even today) there was a "bad" batch of 0.011s made that drove both keyless and keyed users crazy by breaking. The G#s are very close to the tension limit because of a very low value of cross sectional area. A 0.0115 helps considerably. Lack of sharp bends helps. Those that are A B pedal stompers/mashers will have more breakage than the soft touch style of players. This accounts for why one poster claims no string breakage, and another complains.

Can you imagine how long the BEAST would be with a 14 string keyed head?

Curt Langston · Posted 29 Jun 2006 4:07 pm

quote:
Can you imagine how long the BEAST would be with a 14 string keyed head?

Indeed! That would be a feat to behold. I doubt you could keep an .011 G# on it!

David Doggett · Posted 29 Jun 2006 8:07 pm

Actually, the 3rd string on a 14-string key head is the same distance from the nut as the 3rd string on a 12-string or a 10-string. Duh. It is only the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th strings that are longer behind the nut on a 14-string. There seems to be no breakage problem with them. If there is, one only needs to go to a smaller gauge string to get the same pitch with less tension. In fact, assuming that a 24 1/4" neck has strings with optimum tension, if you go to a longer neck, then you should use lighter gauge strings to maintain that optimum tension. This allows you to take advantage of the better sustain of lighter gauge strings, with the same tension and pitch.

If you go to a longer neck but keep the same string gauges, then you will have to increase the tension to get the same pitch. If you were at the optimum tension with the shorter neck, then with the same gauge strings, the longer neck will be beyond optimum tension. Other than string breakage, I'm not sure what happens beyond the optimum tension.

The reason the 3rd string G# was the limiting factor for longer necks in the past was that 0.011 was the smallest gauge that the string manufacturers could make with a consistent diameter. If they can now make 0.010 and 0.09 gauge strings with consistency, then on a longer neck, one could just go to one of those for the 3rd string G#.

So the string breakage problem occurs with longer necks (keyed or keyless) when one attempts to keep the same string gauges as on the shorter neck, and compensates for the longer neck by increasing the tension. If you simply use smaller gauge strings on the longer neck (which seems logical), then the tension remains the same, and the string breakage problem would seem to go away.

If on the other hand, the string tension is below optimum on the shorter neck, then going to a longer neck, and keeping the same string gauges and pitches, raises the tension, but of course results in more string breakage.

There may or may not be other reasons to prefer keyless. But this alleged string breakage problem seems to be a red herring. In moving to longer necks and smaller gauge stings, there will of course be a point beyond which there is no smaller gauge string. And of course that point will be reached first for the highest string, which is the G# on E9. But it seems like that limiting point will be about the same for keyed or keyless. It's all about the tension and the gauge. The distance behind the nut seems to be irrelevant to that.

------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Curt…I may be wrong, but it appears that you still believe that the strings overall length has to do with it’s breaking point….here are the numbers.

In the EMMONS quote that you gave, I notice that Buddy did not say where the strings broke on the longer necks. One breakage problem in the past was with the ball wrap unwrapping as the tension was increased.

DD…The comment on the length of the BEAST with a 14 string key head had to do with body length, not the length of the 3rd string.

I am curious as to what “optimum tension” refers…what is it optimized with respect to? Is it breakage, pounds pull, tone?

String frequency, tension, length, et al behave per the following equation:

Hz =1/(2L)*(SQRT(F/m))
Where:
Hz = frequency in vibrations per second.
L = the nut to bridge distance = scale length (not string length).
SQRT = square root
F = force applied in the direction of string length = tension.
m = mass.

Here in the Colonies, we tend to use the force F in pounds of pull, and the mass m in pounds per cubic inch…convert to suit.

From this equation, we can see that the nut to bridge distance, string gauge & material, and the tension applied, determine the frequency (pitch) of the string). The string length (beyond the nut, and beyond the bridge) do not affect the fundamental frequency of the string.

As the scale length is made longer, the tension required to get a given pitch must increase. The string stretches (see Modulus of Elasticity) with increased tension, hence the string diameter shrinks accordingly.

The breaking point/value for a string depends upon the string material (see tensile strength), the string diameter, and the applied tension. It is NOT the length of the string that determines the breaking point…it is the tension, the material, and the gauge.

Let’s apply the above to the E9 G# string and see what falls out.
We will use A instead of G# for the calculations, as the G# tends to break when it is stretched to A.

We will use three string gauges = 0.0090”, 0.0110”, and 0.0115”.
We will use three scale (nut to bridge) lengths = 24.0”, 25.0”, and 30.0”.

The tensions required to get A with a 0.0090” string are:
24.0” scale = 20.7 pounds pull.
25.0” scale = 22.5 pounds pull.
30.0” scale = 32.5 pounds pull.

The tensions required to get A with a 0.0110” string are:
24.0” scale = 31.0 pounds pull.
25.0” scale = 33.5 pounds pull.
30.0” scale = 48.5 pounds pull.

The tensions required to get A with a 0.0115” string are:
24.0” scale = 34.0 pounds pull.
25.0” scale = 37.0 pounds pull.
30.0” scale = 53.0 pounds pull.

It may be seen from the numbers that there are some very high pounds pull values. The question is, how much is too much, and tensions the string too close to the breaking point. The 30” scale length values are too close to, or past the breaking point when raised to A….so on the BEAST (30” scale) it is raised to F and tuned to E. The BEAST is tuned to C9 instead of E9.

Here is the simplified chart.



NOTE	DIA	LENGTH	LBS PULL


 	 	 	 


A	0.0090	24.0	20.70


A	0.0090	25.0	22.50


A	0.0090	30.0	32.50


F	0.0090	30.0	20.50


 	 	 	 


A	0.0110	24.0	31.00


A	0.0110	25.0	33.50


A	0.0110	30.0	48.50


F	0.0110	30.0	30.50


 	 	 	 


A	0.0115	24.0	34.00


A	0.0115	25.0	37.00


A	0.0115	30.0	53.00


F	0.0115	30.0	33.50

The breaking value for each gauge of string is different because it is in pounds per square inch of string….each gauge has a different cross sectional area (number of square inches), hence a different breaking point. Look up the value for your favorite strings via a Google search. I think that you will want to stay less than 38 pounds pull for the 0.0115” strings. This is because before they break, they don’t return to pitch (plasticity point before tensile snap). Check the tensile limit of the 0.0090” string vs. the values for it in the table….thinner is not always better here.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Adding a couple of columns to Ed's table, just for 24 inch scale, we see that force per unit area is very nearly identical for each diameter of string. This matches my experience in that no diameter of string is more likely to break than any other. The reason for choosing string diameter should be the sound.



NOTE	DIA	    AREA       LENGTH	 force total    force/area


      inches    sq inch    inches    pounds         pounds per square inch


A     .0009     .000081     24.0     20.70          255555


 	 	 	 


A     .011      .000121     24.0     31.00          256198


 	 	 	 


A     .0115     .00013225   24.0     34.00          257088

Curt Langston · Posted 30 Jun 2006 11:20 am

Thanks for the calculations Ed. I appreciate your time. I have just a couple of questions to ask of you, if you do not mind.

Is the part of the string that is behind the roller nut,(tuner end) under the same tension as the scale portion? (I assume it is)

Does that portion of string length,(nut end) move at all during the raise to A?

What is the maximum length that an .011 gauge string can be,(changer to tuning peg) and still pull up to an A from G#, without breaking?

The reason I ask is, this post from Carl Dixon:

quote:
2. Because of a longer string string length(bridge to key peg), string breakage tends to be more frequent. Too much tension.

And this, from the same thread:

quote:
I can, and have proven it beyond ANY shadow of a doubt. The tension on strings 3 thru 7 is MUCH less on a keyless guitar. And tension IS what breaks strings. True, they happen to break at the top of the changer in most cases. But the root cause is the tension, in this analogy.

This is a good thread!

Thanks again.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 30 June 2006 at 12:48 PM.]

David Doggett · Posted 30 Jun 2006 12:09 pm

Thanks, Ed. I think everything I said was consistent with your information. I'm also not sure what the optimum tension is for a string. The manufacturers have their recommendations, which is what we get in the packaged string sets. Clearly volume and sustain increase as tension increases. But I don't know if that continues right up to the break point or not. You indicate that very close to the break point irreversible stretching occurs. So the optimum must be below that. Maybe it is a compromise that is as close to the breaking point as you can get with the amount of breakage you are willing to tolerate. So, with either a short or long neck, you can get a little more tone out of the strings with heavier gauges with higher tension, if you are willing to put up with a little more breakage.

I think the G# string is an anomalie that may not fit the theoretical model for tension, diameter and breakage point. The reason may be that the 0.011 and 0.010 are less consistent in their diameter than other gauges. Say the diameter can be manufactured to plus or minus 0.001. For an 0.011 gauge, that is 9.1% of its diameter. But for an 0.010, that is 10% of its diameter. So if you go from an 0.011 gauge to an 0.010 gauge (for the same pitch and neck length), it theoretically should have lower tension and less breakage; but in reality it is also less consistent in diameter, and so may break just as much. Or conversely, if you do like me, and use an 0.012 (for a volume more consistent with the other strings), it theoretically should break more, but it doesn't seem to.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Earnest....the strings are round, therefor the Cross Sectional Area (CSA)= Pi r^2...This will change your figures a bit. You also have an extra 0 in the 0.009" dia' string.

Curt...same tension behind the nut, +/- any frictional effects. It would have been nice if Carl had said how he came to his "beyond a shadow of a doubt" conclusion...sorry, I don't agree with him, and by way of actual measurement.

Yes, that end of the string does move with the G# to A stretch. The amount of motion can be calculated. If the scale length is 24", and the string length beyond the nut were 24", and the amount of stretch for the change activation is X", the amount of motion at the nut would be 1/2X". If the length beyond the nut were 0", there would be no motion at the nut. Realize that if the length beyond the nut were 24" (= to scale length), the amount of stretch would be twice that required for the pitch change.

We are talking about less the 0.001" for most G#s, keyed or keyless.

DD...One added problem re the thin strings, as well as manufacturing dimensional issues, is that the ratio of surface to volume is greater. The surface is more subject to process variations such as heat and stress than the middle.

I use 0.0115" on the 25" necks for a slight advantage re the area/tension issue. On the BEAST (30" scale tuned to C instead of E, I use either 0.110 or 0.0115 as I have a half tone less tension to begin with, plus shallow angles over the bridge and the nut.

Ain't these thingies fun?

[This message was edited by ed packard on 30 June 2006 at 01:31 PM.]

Joseph Meditz · From: Sierra Vista, AZ

In relative terms, this simple calcuation shows that there is little difference in stress between .009's, .011's and 0.0115's. But in absolute terms, for the 24" length, the stress on the .0115's is about 1000 and 2000 psi greater than the 0.011's and 0.009's resp.

I am not knowledgeable about this stuff, but these stresses are much higher than I would've guessed.

dia len tension stress
[in] [in] [lbs] [psi]
A 0.009 24 20.7 325383
A 0.009 25 22.5 353678
A 0.009 30 32.5 510868
F 0.009 30 20.5 322240

A 0.011 24 31 326202
A 0.011 25 33.5 352508
A 0.011 30 48.5 510348
F 0.011 30 30.5 320941

A 0.0115 24 34 327336
A 0.0115 25 37 356218
A 0.0115 30 53 510259
F 0.0115 30 33.5 322522

Joe

[This message was edited by Joseph Meditz on 30 June 2006 at 01:35 PM.]

David Doggett · Posted 30 Jun 2006 12:23 pm

Curt, If there is no binding at the nut, the tension should be the same on both sides of the nut. For strings with a very sharp angle at the nut, there may be some binding. The nut is supposed to act like a pulley. If you have a rope over a pulley, and you pull on it with 10 lbs of force, you should be able to lift 10 lbs on the other end, and the tension on both sides of the pulley is the same. But if the pulley has substantial friction, then it will require more than 10 lbs to lift the 10 lb. weight.

I don't know the whole situation Carl was describing. If the necks are the same length, then their can't be different tensions unless the pitches are different. If he is talking about the same pitches and neck lengths, then he has discovered an anomalie that defies the laws of physics Ed and the others have described.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

quote:
Can you imagine how long the BEAST would be with a 14 string keyed head?

Indeed! That would be a feat to behold. I doubt you could keep an .011 G# on it!

To a large extent, there seems to be some "unwritten law" that says we must use standard keys, mounted in a straight line, and keep them parallel to the deck. All of these traditions make the keyhead longer than actually necessary. I've always wondered why the string angle behind the nut on keyed guitars must be so deep at the outer strings, and progressively less at the inner strings.

Am I the only one who ever thought of raising the keys slightly on the outer strings, and lowering them on the inside strings? Seems like it would make the angles more equal, and allow a shorter overall length keyhead.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 30 June 2006 at 01:58 PM.]

Curt Langston · Posted 30 Jun 2006 1:01 pm

Thanks for the replies guys. What about the question:

quote:
What is the maximum length that an .011 gauge string can be,(changer to tuning peg) and still pull up to an A from G#, without breaking?

Has anyone figured that one out?

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

JM...Tensile strength in thousands of pounds per sq in KPSI(per Marks Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers) for a variety of materials is given as:
Steel, SAE 4340;
Annealed = 80
Quenched, drawn 1300f = 130
Drawn 1000f = 190
Drawn 700f = 240
Drawn 400f = 290

Not sure what steel SAE # is used for string making, but these values indicate that the tensile limit is quite process dependent.

In general, the yield strength is 20 to 30 KPSI less than the tensile strength values for the materials listed.

Curt...any length you want as long as you can tolerate the amount of pedal throw, or bell crank rotation limits.

[This message was edited by ed packard on 30 June 2006 at 02:09 PM.]

David Doggett · Posted 30 Jun 2006 3:33 pm

Since we seem to have established that the length behind the nut is irrelevant, it seems like the interesting question is: how long can the neck length be (bridge to nut) and pull an 0.011 up to A? How long for 0.010? How long for 0.009?

Curt Langston · Posted 30 Jun 2006 6:21 pm

Very good question David! That has me puzzled. With Carl Dixon's post:

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Here are some “newer” KPSI (tensile limit = breaking tension) values than those previously given. The previous ones cam from prior to 1950 data…perhaps an indication of material improvements over time. The website source is given. You can look there for more info.
[url=http://www.precisionbrand.com/products/default.asp?p_catid=48 " TARGET=_blank>http://www.precisionbrand.com/products/default.asp?p_catid=48[tab][/url]
Dia' Low KPSI High KPSI Low/High
0.0060 415 455 0.912087912
0.0070 407 447 0.910514541
0.0080 399 434 0.919354839
0.0090 393 428 0.918224299
0.0100 387 422 0.917061611
0.0110 382 417 0.916067146
0.0120 377 412 0.915048544
0.0130 373 408 0.914215686
0.0140 369 404 0.913366337

Notice that these KPSI values are much higher than those previously given…they were pre 1950.
Notice that the KPSI increases with decreasing dia'…misprint, or surface to volume ratio issue?
10% variation in manufactured tensile limit.
String diameter manufacturing tolerance.
String stretch variations per halftone change…Mod E inconsistencies.
String stretch reduces string diameter.
String mass variations…density variations…

Although the equation used is self consistent, assumptions are made regarding actual mass, true diameter, elongation (string stretch) etc…for precision of data, measurement of these parameters is required. For trends, and engineering studies, +/- 5% is usually acceptable.

Here is a summation table to this point.

	 	 	 	 	 


NOTE	DIA’	LENGTH	LBS PULL	Sq In	LBS PER Sq In


 	 	 	 	 	 


A	0.0090	24.0	20.70	0.0000636	325383


A	0.0090	25.0	22.50	0.0000636	353678


A	0.0090	30.0	32.50	0.0000636	510868


F	0.0090	30.0	20.50	0.0000636	322240


 	 	 	 	 	 


A	0.0110	24.0	31.00	0.0000950	326202


A	0.0110	25.0	33.50	0.0000950	352508


A	0.0110	30.0	48.50	0.0000950	510348


F	0.0110	30.0	30.50	0.0000950	320941


 	 	 	 	 	 


A	0.0115	24.0	34.00	0.0001039	327336


A	0.0115	25.0	37.00	0.0001039	356218


A	0.0115	30.0	53.00	0.0001039	510259


F	0.0115	30.0	33.50	0.0001039	322522

One would like to see the LBS PER SQ IN column to have values that are less than the “Low” KPSI values given by the music wire manufacturer…say 66% of the manufacturers values, to be on the safe side re string breakage.

ALL STRINGS ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL!!!

Curt...re the quotes...believe the equations, or believe the "statements"...

Re the length limits for various gauges...you can guess on these from the opening table in this post. The question arises as to how to decide on a go/no go criterion. The longer the total string length, and the more the string stretch, the more heat at the top of the finger from change activation...more heat means sooner breakage. This will vary with style and technique.

Take a string, hold it with pliers, and rapidly bend it back and forth while holding it (with your bare fingers) near the pliers; feel the heat. How many bends before the string breaks?

Do not expect the String equation to be as accurate for the wound strings as for the plain strings.

Curt Langston · Posted 1 Jul 2006 8:22 am

quote:
The longer the total string length, and the more the string stretch, the more heat at the top of the finger from change activation...more heat means sooner breakage. This will vary with style and technique.

quote:
I do not recall where I indicated that the length of string beyond the nut, or the bridge, required an increase in tension to get a string to pitch...it does not.

If I said "required an increase in tension to get a string to pitch", I did not mean to.

What I meant was that the keyhead portion of string is included in the tensioning, and pulling up to pitch.

Good info. Ed. On the above tables, how are the strings anchored at the nut end?

How much overhang?

Are the lengths used in the tables including absolute anchor points, or just scale length, or what?

Your above quote indicates that the longer the total string length, the more string to stretch= more heat or stress, and sooner breakage.

Thats what I have been saying all along.

I am not talking keyed or keyless, I am talking total string length and more stretching required to bring the string up to pitch= breaking strings sooner.

I realize that probably greater than 95% of strings that break is done at the changer. But, it is because when the scale is longer than 24 1/4 - 24 1/2 inches long, more breakage occurs, because you have to realize that there is still all that extra string length in the keyhead. It is pulled and under tension as well. Carl and Buddy were referring to this in their posts, when they talk about maxing out at a 24 1/4 scale on a keyed guitar.

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