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Topic: Stiffed for E session...No Pay... |
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 17 Jun 2010 3:30 am |
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Now it's not that big of a deal, I have about an hour into the project with an E delivered wav file track. The guy owes me a few bucks for maybe a month now...
My E session policy is simple , send me your track, I'll play a bit then send it back for comments/approval. At this time they can say either ney or yeh to my playing and we continue the project or part as friends. I do not expect people to pay for something that they do not like, that's MY policy . If approved I continue on and complete the session, return the track and expect payment.
If they do want me to proceed ,payment is expected after delivery/approval of the final track, which in most cases is just a clean-up or a few edits of the initial track sent for review. In this case the guy approved the track.
So far I've done maybe two dozen E tracks on Steel and all clients were pleased and I got paid. I am currently in process of doing 10 tracks for a European client and he has already offered to pay 50% up front, we are working that out now...
Ok, back to the stiffing..
He contacted me, several times, he doesn't even live all that far away...he loves the track, told me he was sending payment and never did. I have his phone number but have not called, I have emailed several times with no response, asking for payment... I guess I could call him and embarrass the heck out of him but that still won't make him pay.It's not that big of a deal money wise but still, payment should be made,a deal was made.
what would you do ?
I do plan to keep sending him Emails and probably even call him. At some point when I do call it will be to tell him, keep the money, you need it more than me... but you obviously are not a man of your word, not trusting , keep the track have a good life. I will probably remind him that each time he listens he should remember he stole the track from me.
E -Sessions, there is risk..even when I did studio sessions downtown, I got paid a month later. The risk is still there.
t
PS, yeah I know, I could hold back the final file until payment is made, I know all that and maybe if it happens more than a few times that is what I will do, change my own policy.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 17 Jun 2010 4:38 am
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| I did one "E session" as you call it for a guy in North Carolina. I wasn't really happy about doing it and won't do any more. The guy contacted me because we both have Sonar and wanted me to put steel on some original songs. I did one for him, which he liked, but opted out of doing any more. The guy couldn't tell me what he wanted or even a hint on the direction or type of backup. The songs "sucked", by the way. |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 17 Jun 2010 5:01 am
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I do cybersessions all the time. Most are for clients I`ve worked for in the real world also. If I do something for a complete unknown, I send an mp3 first,low quality,unusable for a master. When I get the money, out goes the real stuff.
If I´d been stiffed (so far I`ve been paid for all sessions) I might be even more careful and insert gaps in the mp3s to make sure they can`t be used.
_________________
Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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Mitch Drumm
From:
Frostbite Falls, hard by Veronica Lake
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Posted 17 Jun 2010 5:04 am Re: Stiffed for E session...No Pay...
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
Ok, back to the stiffing..
He contacted me, several times, he doesn't even live all that far away...he loves the track, told me he was sending payment and never did. I have his phone number but have not called, I have emailed several times with no response, asking for payment... I guess I could call him and embarrass the heck out of him but that still won't make him pay.It's not that big of a deal money wise but still, payment should be made,a deal was made.
what would you do ?
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Cut my losses and move on as if this had never happened.
Your first loss is your best loss.
The guy may have died. Maybe your emails didn't get through. Maybe the dog ate his homework.
Etcetera.
Those things are possible. They are unlikely.
If you call him or initiate any further discussions of any kind, your blood pressure is likely to rise along with what that entails---all of it undesirable.
I wouldn't even consider emailing or calling him. What are the chances you will feel better after having done that? Near zero. You won't be "getting anything off your chest" or "giving him a piece of your mind" or anything like that.
Instead, you will have willingly aggravated the wound. Why would you do that?
On the off chance that the dog did eat his homework (read: he has a valid explanation), leave it on him to recontact you and make good without ANY prodding from you. If he contacts you and does anything short of that without solicitation, hang up the phone and put him on your NG list.
Otherwise, move on--it isn't worth the headache you are already showing signs of.
I say that not as a musician but as an amateur long-time observer of human nature---as you are yourself. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 17 Jun 2010 5:27 am
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yes move on, I actually have..good advice ! but...
if by chance we cross paths again ...
Jack, doesn't much matter if the songs suck, they are asking us to add music to them, it's there song not mine. I also use Sonar as ONE recording method. Mostly though all they wanted back was a 16 bit or 24 bit wav file. I have done two projects where I was sent an entire Sonar project file( FTP) , I gave them a few different takes on a few tracks and returned the entire project file. Pretty simple stuff...
I have been fortunte in that the discussions and guidelines have been pretty good with regard to what the former clients have wanted me to do, that has not been an issue.
I kinda enjoy doing the E-session thing, the clients I worked for were pretty savvy but were also leaning on my input to match playing/style to the particular songs... I like the challenge, I'm up for it !
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
Last edited by Tony Prior on 17 Jun 2010 9:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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David Collins
From:
Madison, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2010 7:38 am
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For what ever it's worth.
I used a service called rent-a-coder once some years back to get guy to write some very specific software code that I needed. We worked the deal through the service here:
http://www.vworker.com/RentACoder/DotNet/default.aspx
Short story is, he and I made contact, agreed on the price, I put money in escrow, he knew he'd get paid, he did the work, I approved the work, he got his money, everyone happy.
Might be worth checking into in the future.
Good Luck,
David
_________________
David Collins
www.chjoyce.com |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 17 Jun 2010 9:13 am
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Escrow, uhmm... Well maybe but at my level of E session involvement that may be more than needed right now, one sad sack doesn't upset the whole cart, each of the other clients have been trusted and trustworthy...I guess I'll just stick with this format for now, I still have food on the table !
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 15 Jul 2010 1:52 am
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just a simple update to the scenario..no, the guy never paid, I stopped communicating, and moved on..
but..
I have been commissioned by three new clients since this event and have come to this conclusion, 98.5 out of 100 can be considered trustworthy.
I have advised each new client that I indeed am a trusting soul and expect that they are as well,I told each that I have been ripped off ! Each replied back with astonishment that someone would rip off another musician for something like an E session...all agreed that trusting souls is a pre-requisite as two of them are sending original songs and had a mild concern with regard to these songs.
One new client has already paid for 3 songs up front while we have only completed one to date, a second client,pays by Paypal before the final wave file is sent, the 3rd has sent me two original songs but I am not certain yet of these songs, very folkish, very non-meter style..nice songs but I'm not sure yet about the Steel on these songs...he left it up to me. Maybe Dobro...
What I have done for the clients is send them a ref. track with the Steel in the mix , 64 bit MP3 pretty much unusable for anything other than generic listening for approval. There are specific reference marks in the track which indeed makes it unusable . This started as a safe guard but has proven to be a very useful tool for the client who is adding additional instruments.
I'm still a trusting soul and suspect most of those that are contacting me are as well. If I can't do this in a trusting atmosphere then I'm out, I won't even do it.
E Sessions, not quite as easy as it seems but challenging and at the end not all that much different than going to a studio other than the only one you can talk to is yourself during the session !
uhmmm..webcam session anyone ?
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2010 6:23 am
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I haven't done any sessions yet over the net, but I assumed that sending the client a lower quality format (MP3) quick mix for approval was the norm. It seems like sending a stranger a WAV file of a steel track before you get paid would leave you unprotected.
What are you guys typically charging for these E sessions? |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 15 Jul 2010 8:29 am
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| Rick Schmidt wrote: |
What are you guys typically charging for these E sessions? |
That is the caveat...hard to say...variable, negotiable.
The clients I am dealing with are not record producers or A,B or even C artists, they are mostly artists trying to find there way with a demo or a self produced CD they are offering for sale at gigs. I learn as much as I can about them and the project and charge a rate that we can both live with.
The thing about it is to not be total strangers after you talk and agree on whats expected, both directions.
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 16 Jul 2010 3:43 pm
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When I've done non-cyber sessions there's generally more than one take and someone else does whatever slicing and dicing is required. Now I've got my first e-session coming up and inquiring minds want to know:
What do you give the client when you're doing a cyber session? Deliver one complete track, or a couple of alternates or what?
Also, do you generally do your own engineering or get someone in? |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 16 Jul 2010 3:59 pm
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Yeah, I like the idea of sending out the low-quality mp3 version for approval and, upon receipt of payment, sending out the high-quality wav version. That ought to protect you pretty well in the future. (Unless they just don't care about the quality and are happy to use the mp3; make sure it's a really low sampling rate)
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 17 Jul 2010 2:11 am
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I think, and I am not the genius here, thinking normally gets me in trouble but... you need to have as much up front discussion as possible, ask the questions.
You really have to become the producer so to speak. Well, actually you are the producer for your parts.
I send one Steel track over the track which was sent to me, if I did my job right it should be close, maybe even spot on. I have found, for me, the KISS rule applies big time. A majority of the E sessions I have done (a dozen or so ) required nice simple Steel that fit the song, out of the way, but with some pizzaz..did I spell that right ? I probably spend more time listening to the song than playing over it. I think for the most part after the track is approved all I did was clean it up,take out any clunkers or noise, maybe add another phrase maybe take one out, nothing major, just like a real sit down studio session.
And yes, self engineer, have the ability to do the whole process.
hope this helps...
After 10,000 E Sessions I'm going to retire and move to the coast of Italy... I'm up to about 14 now...
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 17 Jul 2010 12:04 pm
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Hey Tony,
I think you're doing the right thing buy putting it behind you. If your pay scale for these things is anything like mine, it's not worth fretting (no pun intended) over.
I've done a few E sessions without any payment problems. However, I found that when they want the tracks sent to them dry/raw and they'll add the effects themselves, it sometimes doesn't sound they way I would like, but like you said, it's their project, if they're happy.........
I did a real session years ago and the guy was supposed to send a check and it never came, and he disappeared. About ten years later I was driving through Dayton, OH about 2:00 in the morning and I heard a song on the radio and I thought "that sounds familiar" You know the rest. I just had a good laugh and kept on driving. 
It's the way things are done now, but personally I don't like records that are pieced together with separate sessions. I think you lose the interaction between musicians and the song suffers. I believe Nashville is doing a lot of that now and that's one of the reasons many of the songs sound so lifeless. I do it myself on my own DIY projects out of necessity because I can only play one instrument at a time, but I try to keep in mind what I'll be doing on the next track, etc... and kept it sounding live.
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2010 11:59 pm
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My Skype students, all over the U.S., are required to pay for lesson time in advance via PayPal. So far no problems at all, you might try that, Tony.
When I eventually get ready to handle remote overdubs, I'll handle that the same way. If someone objects to PayPal, then a cleared check, money order, or similar must be received prior to releasing the final WAV file.
It's just the right way to do business, imho.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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James Cann
From:
Phoenix, AZ
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Posted 20 Aug 2010 10:22 am
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He contacted me, several times,...loves the track, told me he was sending payment. . . never did. I have emailed several times with no response, asking for payment... I guess I could call him and embarrass the heck out of him but that still won't make him pay.It's not that big of a deal money wise but still, payment should be made,a deal was made.
what would you do ? |
Put his name on the forum as personna non grata. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2010 7:46 pm
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| Well, Tony, at least you can write it off as "bad debt" on your taxes... |
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