pedal spacing problem

Olie Eshleman · From: Seattle, WA

I learned on an MSA classic S10 keyed, and recently bought a Williams 700 series U12 keyless. The pedal spacing is much narrower and when I play a V7 chord with B pedal down and my LKR lever (lowers E's) I have trouble not hitting my A pedal and have to look at my feet to make sure I am clear of the A pedal. I never had this problem on the MSA and it sounds terrible when it happens.

I have thought of changing the pedal positions or seeing about changing the pedal spacing as I have 8 pedals and I think it'll accommodate 10.

Any other suggestions of how to fix this problem short of wearing cowboy boots?

Olie Eshleman · From: Seattle, WA

Another question: Anyone ever change the pedal spacing on a williams?

Looks like there are aluminum blocks at each end with set screws and pieces of plastic between the pedals. If I get two slightly longer pieces of plastic for either side of the B pedal and move the end blocks out slightly, i can get away with adjusting the pedal height slightly and maybe stop hitting the A pedal?

Am I missing something here?

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I wouldn't start moving the pedals around.
What I did on my Williams was to cut the right corner off on the A pedal at a 45 degree angle. That will help you from hanging up on that pedal when you rock off the A pedal and engage the LKR lever.

richard burton · From: Britain

Only use a hacksaw as a last resort.

It's far easier to simply add a few washers to the spacers, to increase the pedal spacing

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

If you start moving the pedals around, the pedal rods will hang at the wrong dangle.
Rememnber, you have to have the right angle of the dangle! Very Happy

The first Sho~Bud I got from Shot Jackson had that corner cut off the A pedal.

Olie Eshleman · From: Seattle, WA

Washers!! genius, thanks Richard!

I understand that If I do this, the pedal rods will be less than straight, slightly bridled, will a small amount of this bridling cause any problems?

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

You'll play out of tune! Whoa!

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Manufacturers go to great lengths to get everything to pull straight, and on center. I'll bet you'll get used to it. I went from a '72 wide-pedal Shobud to a Kline Uni. Only took a couple of days of long practices, to get used to the much narrower pedal spacing. Of course I wear A width shoes. Do you wear quad Es? 8^)

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

This is why many of us prefer to lower the Es on RKL rather than LKR. But that may introduce an even bigger adjustment in your playing. Have you tried lowering the A pedal a bit? (of course then you may have trouble clearing the B pedal when you rock off of it).

Dan

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Olie, here is a shot of a bar off an early 2000's 400 series. I don't know if yours is the same but if so, it's real easy to adjust the spacing. Just loosen up the set screw on the right end and spread the pedals out a bit as in the photo right. [The black pieces are the spacers.] The set screws in the retainers on either end are all that hold the pedals. Once you loosen up the retainer, the pedals are fairly free to move. The pedals fit pretty tight in the rack, but you could find some wider spacers to put between them.

I don't see how this adjustment would hurt anything. Your pedals rods connect to the side of the pedals, right?

You can ask Bill Rudolph to advise you if you have any concerns about doing this.

[edit:] The pedal assembly is 3 pieces as shown here. The 2 nylon bearings on either side and the pedal itself. Once you move them away from the spacers, there's nothing to keep them from separating, so new wider spacers would be in order it seems. They're not loose and you might get by without them, but that's what I'll do if and when I move mine.

Olie Eshleman · From: Seattle, WA

Once again I must praise the SGF and all of you for being helpful intelligent badasses.

Jerry,
the pedal rack on the 700 looks almost identical but the rods attach from the side, you are corrrect.

I am going to try using washers to increase the spacing and to see if it changes anything, just cause I'm curious.

If that doesn't work i will lower the A pedal and if that doesn't work I'll start on different shoes.

Thank you all for the help!!

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

If you use washers, you will have to disassemble the entire pedal bar as the bearings slide in from one end. Plus that will leave less area for each of the pedal bosses to sit on.

The 7/8" wide black pieces are the spacers and they're only 1/8" or so thick. A better alternative would be to make new 1" or wider spacers out of some aluminum stock and just drop 'em in on top of the existing spacers. You could use some inexpensive 1/16" x 3/4" flat stock and saw it into 1" or wider squares depending on how much more spacing you think you need.

They fit tight enough that you can experiment and move them around until you can see how much spacing is necessary.

Whatever you decide, Good Luck!

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

The pedal spacing is given by the spacing of the cross shafts above. Unless you plan to redesign your guitar completely, you would generated a fanning (un-parallel) of your pedal rods which would not favor the aesthetics of your instrument and when exaggerated, even affect it's mechanical playability.

I really can not believe that the pedal spacing of an Emmons or a Williams would be sooo different you would not be able to play it. Sometimes it takes a little time to get used to a new guitar.
On a keyless guitar the whole set of pedals may be a little closer to the right as you might be used to from a playing a key headed -longer- guitar. That too, can take some getting used to and fitting in.

Would it not make more sense to adjust some pedals HEIGHT so to fit you in better?
Depending on your leg length, you might also have to adjust your left knee lever cluster... maybe even move it.

... J-D.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

" even affect it's mechanical playability. "

Yes J-D! I should have made that clearer in my post. That's why manufacturers obsess about straight pull, on center issues. The company I worked for let me use micrometers to align everything as perfectly as possible.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Talking about very minor adjustments here. The pedal rods connections move in an eccentric motion anyway when activated by the pedals. No more or less than the bell cranks do when moved by the pull rods.

I don't believe this little bit of extra spacing would cause any problems with the guitar. Certainly not destroy it. If it makes it more comfortable, why not try it?

As stated earlier, I defer to Bill Rudolph.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Again, I firmly believe that the OP's problem is not so much routed in a difference in pedal spacing but due to the fact that compared to a keyed guitar, on a keyless guitar the whole set of pedals is much closer to the right RELATIVE to the fret board.
I remember facing that early discomfort when first switching to a keyless guitar after just about having gotten somewhat comfortable on my first (keyed) PSG.

I suspect it's a question or finding a new and good body position, adjusting the position of the left knee lever set and individual pedal heights.

... J-D.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Whatever....it is not my place to tell Olie what he should or shouldn't do, merely to help him achieve his objective as suggested in the title of his topic. Thus the reason for pulling out my own pedal bar and doing some examination on how it is constructed and posting photos of same.

The decision is up to him ultimately.

I believe he is quite capable of weighing all the information and making an intelligent decision on his own.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · From: Clinton, Missouri USA

I have played keyless Williams for 25 years. I also had the problem of the pedal spacing being too narrow. Solution: Take the pedals off and take to a machinist and have 1/8 inch removed on each side starting at the ball connection. This will give you an extra 1/4 inch between each pedal and solve your problem. ( I did mine with a belt sander, it worked but not too neat a job) If you do this then the pulls are still straight as they should be.

My new Williams is arriving tomorrow. Bill narrowed the pedals 1/8 inch on each side for me at his shop.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

When I got my first Williams, I fiddled with the pedal spacing because I was used to wide Sho~Bud pedals or wide spaced Emmons.
Don't use washers, just get some strips of plastic like the ones Bill uses ( he will send them to you if you ask). In the end it wasn't the spacing at all, I moved everything one space to the right. That solved the feel issue for me, and I went back to the factory spacing. That was on a keyed S-10 guitar. I have a keyless Williams S-12U with 8 and 6 and, oddly, the factory pedal locations and spacing feel just right. You might try lowering the A pedal or raising the B pedal too. I am assuming that this is your first new modern guitar.... they have a different feel than the vintage axes.

I think that I met you in Seattle... I was doing some gigs with a band "Cady Wire" out there... i think that you were doing sound one night at some club in Ballard.

Olie Eshleman · From: Seattle, WA

yeah! Thanks Mike, I remember. You guys were fantastic, and your steel playing was awesome, really enjoyed your use of effects, big Pink Floydish sounds at times, it was a pleasure.

Two things about this thread are reassuring: One, many of have had the same problem, and second you all got over it.

I raised the B pedal and it helps bit but will take some getting used to. Part of the issue is that the A pedal accident doesn't happen all that much, but as I said, It sounds terrible when it does.

Part of me doesn't want to change anything about Bill's design, but adjust myself and my playing instead.

the only time I use the B pedal by itself is in conjuction with my LKR for the V7 chord, which is making me consider moving the E lower pull to RKL and lower my G's on LKR instead, a pull i almost never use in conjuction with any pedals.

Funny things is, when playing a Maj VI chord with the A pedal and the LKL (raises E's)after a IV chord A/B mash, having to push on that knee lever helps me get off the B pedal, I wish the same were true for the IV to V7 move, but alas it is not so, and here I am.

I have a long list of things to try and I am sure something will work. Thank you all!!

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Olie,

Soon, you are going to find uses for the B pedal by itself.... there are a lot of them. So you have to get that move anyway, no matter where you put the E lower change.

Sometimes, depending on your personal physiology, the type of shoes that you wear can make a big difference.

Thanks for the kind words about the band and my playing.... I won't be doing any more gigs with them. ( logistics and less than transparent business practices.)

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