Rit dye Experiments

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

Well here's the first Rit test dye using 99% Isopropyl Alc at rate of 1 pkg powder dye (31.9g)heated to 140F on a hotplate in a beaker with 300 ml. (approx 10 oz.)alc. There is a quantity of insoluble residue so it was filtered thru 2 layers of coffee filter paper to get a dye solution.All I had around was purple but will try more colors soon.[img]

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...I hope these pix show up. Stormy[/img]didn't have any maple scraps so this was done on birch plywood.

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

Microscopic examination @ 400x showed the liquid to be a true solution, ie: no particulate matter, upon drying it formed a relatively contiguous and even color layer on the slide, with what appears to be NaCl, or table salt micro-crystalline,evenly dispersed with the color component, identifiable by the colorless cubic crystal form. And the fact that the Rit label list salt as a major constituent.I am currently dehydrating more isopropyl with oven slaked epsom salt as it will absorb any water in the organic and fall to the bottom leaving an anhydrous alcohol ,that hopefully will eliminate more/most of the dissolved sodium chloride.....Stormy Winking

Bobby Burns · From: Tennessee, USA

It's impressive that you have done such a scientific study of how soluble it is in alcohol. The main concern I have, is after exposure to sun light, how long will it keep that vibrant color?

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

Definitely a parameter I will test also. We get pretty intense sunlight with an obviously large dose of UV a and b , soon as the piano laquer arrives I will do a 2' x 2' piece with a number of colors on a grid. I will leave one group unfinised and finish the other group with lacquer and place it out in the yard in direct sunlight and begin testing that parameter. Stay tuned as there is more to come...Stormy Winking

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

Storm
Have you considered leather dye, I used it on a project, and had very good results. It would be interesting to have a sample included in your test. It can be had at most any shoe repair shop.My guitar is just as bright red as the day it was finished about 8 years ago....Just a thought. Really in depth study you have going there.

Bill
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Bobby Burns · From: Tennessee, USA

I would like to know about how the leather dye holds up to sun light also. I have heard that some colors of RIT dye are more colorfast than others also, but after the mandolin finish mentioned in the other thread, I just don't take a chance with it any more. I haven't noticed the fading with leather dye, solarlux, or trans-tint.

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

Bobby,
Here is a picture at about 7 years, don't know if you can tell a lot, but still bright.

Storm...didn't mean to hijack your thread..Bill

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Steeling for Jesus now!!!

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

All of the stained maple veneer guitars at Dekley were done with leather dye. They were in business from roughly 1976-1983 and I have yet to see any fading on any of them. I see no reason to experiment with anything else.

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

No prob Bill ,that's what I want this thread to promote is inpiut about efficacy of alternate coloring and finishing agents, kind od an addendum to the earlier thread about wood dyes and ZB's.Didn't have time to find if I even have a source for leather dye up here in the boonies, but it will get it's turn for sure.I'm waitin on the alc to "dry" overnite with dessicant in place ,see if that reduces or eeliminates the salt in the concentrate. What are you guys thoughts on the first test (purple)? I think it went on pretty nice (rag wipe),the color seems nice and rich IMO....Stormy Smile

Jim Bates · From: Alvin, Texas, USA

If this is only related to Rit dye, please ignore.

I dyed a 'raw' or white fiddle several years ago a bright red color using just red food coloring from grocery store. Then I applied good violin varnish. It is still in great color. Will post pic later.

Thanx,
Jim

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

Ignore, by no means, food coloring is a candidate now, any alternative dyes should be considered IMO Winking

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

Just my twocents...with the leather dye, there is no prep, mixing,heating,etc.you open the bottle, and wipe it on, I think I remember reading that Dekley had sprayed it to achieve a sunburst blend. I do remember when buffing the first coats of clear, I broke through on an edge and exposed raw white wood, I wiped the spot with color and continued with the clear.At this point, it would not have been a big disaster to strip and start over. Knowing where the mistake was, I could not see it.

Bill
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Steeling for Jesus now!!!

Dennis Saydak · From: Manitoba, Canada

I would caution you against using RIT dye because it is not fade proof. Here's a picture that illustrates the degree of fading from being in the sun only 3 hours. I'd never use it on a guitar. Many model airplane builders use Higgins fade proof ink to dye the covering of their models with great success. It is available from art stores.

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Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

Some research on the innertube has come up with some ideas to use a mordant, I may try aluminum ammonium sulfate ,ie: alum and scrub the use of anhydrous alchol as a solvent. Last nite some more test batches were made using 91% isopropyl, aand some using denatured ethanol @ 70/30 alc to H2O ratio resulting in much less insoluble residue.....the salt in Rit ,as it turns out is added as mordant. And I think one should take into account the date of previous Rit dye formulas ,as they have changed over time. And probs may arise from different colors due to the actual pigment formulation.Lastly ,we kinda know the commercially prepared compounds that have been used both successfully and otherwise. I just thought since Rit is cheap and readily available,and since it's use has been brought up in another thread , I figured what the heck may as well play around with it and see if some useful, empirical data can be accumulated.....Stormy Smile

Bobby Burns · From: Tennessee, USA

I think this is all interesting, but since I know from bad experience that RIT and food coloring fade, I was just trying to save other folks a little time and heartache. There are a lot of dyes/stains on the market that have been used on instruments that haven't faded. Most of them are very concentrated, a little goes a long way, and the cost per instrument is insignificant. Why would anyone wish to save 5 bucks just to see if their guitar is the One that didn't fade? Also, leather dye, or any of the easily available pre-mixed stains, will be the same color every time you open the bottle. You will spend a lot less time trying to learn the material.

Jim Bates · From: Alvin, Texas, USA

Re: food coloring

I just used it from the bottle and brushed it on, then did a wipe with rag to get it smooth. On my violin, I did use a yellow dye first (same way) then applied the red coloring so I could get a little bit of orange tint to the red.

Since I never leave my fiddle out in the full sun I have never noticed any change in the color over the 20 years since.

Thanx,
Jim

ps- I learned about the food color staining from a local fiddle repairman Al Winters in Pasadena.

Larry Lorows · From: Zephyrhills,Florida, USA

Hi guys, this is an interesting topic for me. I used to build furniture and I made my own stain out of chewing tobacco and ammonia. It sure cleaned out my sinuses when I applied it. The Amish people in Pennsylvania used to make a furniture stain out of butter milk and berries.

Someone mentioned color fading, and as a sign painter, I learned that reds and blues always fade quicker than other colors. You may want to think of that when experimenting.

Keep up the good work. Larry
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Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

Thx Larry, the info about the Amish use of buttermilk is interesting and relevant as I ran across the use of Lactic acid as mordant last nite in my tube-surfing..also some personal experiences with Rit and pretreating the wood with distilled white vinegar (acetic acid 5%) and a commonly used fruit canning compund (sodium bisulfite), to prevent "browning" of peaches, potatoes, etc. I have found the Rit product "White-Wash" labeled as a stain remover and whitener for non-bleachable (chlorine based bleach)whites. It contains ,sodium carbonate-anhydrous, and sodium hydrosulfite (same compound as NaHSo3...sodium bi-sulfite), while the Na2CO3, is better known as "washing soda" commonly used to clean porous and non-porous surfaces prior to dyeing/finishing....Stormy Smile

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Storm,
Thanks for doin' these experiments. I was the one who mentioned using Rit dye in the other thread, so, of course, this interests me!

Larry,
I did a gunstock with RedMan chaw. It came out beautifully. Also did another with Walnut shell husks that worked out well also. They were muzzle-loaders, so I wanted to follow the traditional, old time methods.

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

The pigment primarily found in tobacco and walnut shells would be tannin, a compound formed naturally from which tannic acid can be made. History has shown it to be well absorbed and colorfast agent but alas ,only in shades of brown. Smile

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Yup Storm! Only brown. But of course, that's what was needed on the old-style gunstocks. One of the things that intrigued me about the Rit dyes were the incredible selection of colors.

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

That's a big factor also, I am about to post a gridded board with some colors both out of the box and a few mix and see.......Stormy Smile

Larry Lorows · From: Zephyrhills,Florida, USA

Hi Storm, An old sign painters trick was if you wanted any color to brighten up, use a little yellow mixed in.I've done it a thousand times, especailly for stock car lettering. If you want it to cover more, use a little silver mixed in. Larry
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Lee Gillespie · From: Cheyenne, Wy. USA

Zane Beck used food dyes on all his ZB's when he was building them out of Phoenix. I was shocked when he told me this... when he built my 2 ZB's. Lee

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Storm,Jerry Blanton finished a couple of guitars using printers ink on the maple body then wiping it off,It's hard to describe what it looked like,very iridescent looking,Jerry said that the chemical reaction between the maple and the ink caused this. Winking

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