Adding left knee levers to C6

Arne Odegard · From: Norway

I'm thinking about adding some of Buddy Emmons C6 left knee levers on my Carter D10; LKL, LKR and LKV. How should I align these in regards to the changer or back apron?
There are pictures on the Carter website but no measurements. Has anyone done this on a Carter?

Arne

Ryan Barwin · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

One thing you could do is to just get a couple of pulls and add them to your E9 LKL and LKV, but connected to the C6 neck. (You don't want a pull on LKR, because that lever kind of gets in the way. It's a bit of a stretch to hit them, but it's very possible to do and it works well. I've got that on one of my D-10's, and I actually find it more comfortable than on my D-10 that's got C6 levers in the centre.
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David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

The most important alignment is to the pedals that you'll be using those specific knee levers with. Some players even have a separate "Crawford cluster" of C6th knee levers that they move over to when they scoot closer to the changer to play C6th - that's for a doubleneck. I play a S10 C6th Carter, and I have the 5 pedals located so that there's room (holes drilled) for three on the left, and one on the right side of the pedal bar. And the five knees are right above them. You kinda have to see the vertical knee lever to locate it, and of course the knee lever's positions have to relate to an axle.

Arne Odegard · From: Norway

If I were to align them with my Left E9th levers would that be OK?
Or is there something that I must consider in regards to the changer?

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

If you are installing a separate set of knee levers for the C6th neck, you should position them closer toward the back of the guitar. This will put them more in line with the C6th changer. Oft times, knee levers are supported by just brackets and not cross shafts, particularly if they are only pulling one string.
When I have ordered knee levers from Emmons, they send dimensions along.

Arne Odegard · From: Norway

Last month I added the C to C# change on my 3rd string RKR, I purchased the parts from Al Brisco in Canada. I was was hoping for some plans or illustrations for placement but was left to my own devices to figure out the best place to mount the bell crank. I had to make a Z bend on the pull rod.
It works but I'm still not sure if there was a better way of doing it. I mailed Al Brisco for some advice but he never got back to me. Guess he didn't know or wasn't interested.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Arne,
If you really want to get fancy, add separate right knee levers for the C6th neck. I have a couple of guitars set up like that, a Rains and a Williams. The slickest setup, however, is by Eddie Fulawka on his D-10s. He has a crossover setup where you can just pull out a couple of knobs and it switches the right knees from one neck to the other.

Arne Odegard · From: Norway

I'm getting fancy on this one Erv. Buying new levers so I can center them over the C6 pedals. I know I want Buddy's LKR change, not so certain about the other Left knee changes, but since I have to take off the back apron anyway I thought I'd add all his changes.

Robbie Daniels · From: Casper, Wyoming, USA

When I ordered my Carter D12 I had them add a C6 knee lever in line behind my LKR to pull two C's to C# and my D to Eb. the LKR was not in the way because it folds to the left. Works great. I just change my leg position when I go to C6.
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Paul Crawford · From: Orlando, Fl

Both of my guitars have those knees. They are centered over the 5th and 6th pedals, (about in the middle of the guitar), and roughly on the cabinet center line. Seems to be the "standard" position on 8/7s.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

The thing to remember about Carters, is that the guitars are (at least that is what John Fabian told me) pre-machined for adding knee levers and pedals. It's best to get the correct lever kits from the Carter parts guy (Al Brisco, I believe). When I added a "zero pedal" to my guitar, the kit came with the correct parts, including the right length pull rods. You will position the cross shafts where the front and back aprons are drilled for them and then mount the levers where you have room. All 3 left knee levers on my guitar connect the levers to their cross shafts with a linkage rod (adjustable), which would allow a little flexibility in where the levers mount (but not much). Also, take a look at the levers you have installed already. I'll bet that some of the screws on the mounting brackets are below other cross shafts which will require you to at least take off or loosen the rear apron so you can move the shafts and other pull rods out of the way when you screw the brackets into the guitar.

As far as the recommendation of mounting them to the rear of the guitar so they are over the C6th rods, it won't really matter that much if you use Carter kits, because the lever doesn't attach to it's cross shaft, and the cross shafts extend the whole width of the undercarriage. My guitar, which came with the 3 levers on C6th installed when it was built, has the LKL nearer to the back apron, the RKR located pretty much in the middle of the guitar. LKV is mounted between them from front to back. I personally would prefer the C6th levers to be in the middle area of the guitar (again, front to back). When I move my knee to use the C6th levers, my knee extends closer to the front of the guitar than when in the E9th levers. The other thing to consider in mounting the levers, is that they don't hit another lever when you try to fold them away when you take the guitar down and put it in it's case.

I could probably take pictures tomorrow of how Carter installed my levers if you want.

Personal opinion here: Unless I was a EXCELLENT steel guitar mechanic (and I am fairly good at working on my guitars), I would probably send this to someone who works on Carter's and does a lot of them (Other really good mechanics would probably do a good job also). I wouldn't think about installing those levers myself. I installed the one extra pedal, and it easy, but I didn't have to screw in brackets for the pedal.

EDIT: I just noticed you are in Norway. Shipping the guitar would probably not be a real good idea. But, I would look in Europe for a mechanic if I didn't feel comfortable drilling into my guitar.
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Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Arne, for a job like this, considering where you are, my first thought would be for you to contact Dag Wolf,
numero uno steel tech in Norway. Then take it from there.
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Arne Odegard · From: Norway

This is what I've found on the Carter website regarding adding knee levers
https://www.steelguitar.com/carter_store/partscart/locations.html
https://www.steelguitar.com/support/leverkit/klkitindex.html

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Whether you do the work yourself or not, it may be useful to place a strip of masking tape along the bottom edge of the apron, and use a soft pencil or Sharpie to mark where your legs actually can move to, while they're on the pedals you'll be using. I am a dedicated two-footer, and that changes things somewhat. The marks help in trying to get the levers where they'll be easiest to use while holding down different pedals - you get to think about that, too. Mr. Green

If it's a lacquer guitar, put down low-stick blue painter's tape first, or maybe tape a long piece of paper as carefully as possible to protect the finish.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

I have 4-Emmons KL's on the C6 of my Derby:
LKL = Lower #4 (½-tone) A to Ab
LKR = Raise #4 (½-tone) A to Bb
RKL = Lower #3 (½-tone) C to B
RKR = Raise #3 (½-tone) C to C#
I also Raise #7 (½-tone) C to C# on my RKR. You can also use your split/tuners on LKL & RKL. Quite affective!
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Arne Odegard · From: Norway

Thanks for all your information guys.
John.. I have 3rd string C to C# and C to B on my RKR and RKL so I at least would like to have LKR A to Bb on my 4th string. Not so sure about the A to Ab on the LKL.
I tried tuning my 4 string to Ab and didn't like what I heard or maybe didn't understand what I was hearing?

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Arne...by itself, the A-Ab lever is a really usable Augmented on strings 7,6,& 4. I personally like the dissonance by adding string 5, but that's probably not for everyone. You make it more palatable by lowering string 5 with pedal 5. Many uses with this one!

At the open position, when used with pedal 6, it's a great Fm9! Also it's a close voiced AbMaj7.

With both 5&6 pedals, it's a nice Ab7 on strings 7,6,5,4,& 3. (with string 2, it's a 13th)

There's also a lot of nice movement you can do when you toggle between this lever and the A-Bb lever....much in the same way as the E-Eb and E-F KL's on E9.

I myself lower both A's, but with just the high A lowered (like BE) it's that cool AmMaj7 that is often used as a descending lick from Amin to Amin7.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

+1 on my most excellent colleague Rick Schmidt's post on A-Ab. I can't do without it for my needed chords.
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John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Arne; It's a nice effect if you engage p-7, raiing #3 & #4 (1-tone), then while hlding p-7 down engage LKL, lowering #4 (½-tone). Open Tuning = Gm6
-C6___P-7___LKL___Total_____
1-G/D______________G/D______
2-E_________________E_______
3-C____D____________D_______
4-A____B_____Bb_____Bb______
5-G_________________G_______
6-E_________________E_______
This is where a split/tuner is necessary for full usage.
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<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster

John Swain · From: Winchester, Va

Arne, here's a pic of my Carter setup at factory with 8 kneelevers .You should be able to see location for center kls..JS

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