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Topic: Tuning Chart with Different F# Notes |
Adam Olson
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2010 12:07 pm |
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In the vein of tuning I was watching a video that talked about tuning of the E9 pedal steel and it said
1 - F# +4 Cents
2 - Eb -10 Cents (always boggles me why they don't say D# since it is in E I guess because E9 would have a flat seven of D)
3 - G# -11 Cents
4- E 0 Cents
5 - B 0 Cents
6 - G# -11 Cents
7 - F# - 15
8 - E 0
9 - D 0
10 - B 0
So I bought this Korg LCA - 120 chromatic tuner for $30 that lets me program in my own settings and switch back to Equal temperament if I want. As I was programming it I noticed that for some strange reason the three F# were all different and I am wondering why that is. When I play them all together they beat off each other, what's the point of that? |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2010 1:56 pm
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Adam, you'll find there are various views about tuning pedal steel, and some who hold one view or another are quite passionate about it.
My $.02 worth:
I'll refer you to this current thread:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=187480
titled "meantone tuning", where I've posted a chart for that tuning method, with my comments. I use that method myself, and I like it. Give it a try--see what you think. |
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Adam Olson
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2010 4:42 pm
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Great thanks, I will have to read through the forum you linked to in the forum you linked to (that sounds redundantly redundant).
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=135112&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=meantone&start=0
Do you know if there is a name for the tuning I posted? I from what I kind of gathered from the two forums is that they have the same note tuned different ways for augmented and diminished chords, even though in equal tempered tuning we don't do that. Is that your take on the tuning I listed as well? I am not sure why F# was picked as the note to be all over the place though. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 12 Jul 2010 6:38 pm
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Adam,
I would consider this a hybrid or 'tampered' tuning. Not JI / Not ET == somewhere in between. It is similar but not identical to the way I tune.
The F#s are tuned differently because the 1st string is set to work with the 5th string tuned to B -- the B and F# is a fifth apart. The 7th is tuned as it is to match the A pedaled C# on 5 and 10.
An open B6 chord using the 1st string is in tune (but the 7th is off -- possibly noticeably). An open A6 chord (A+B) is in tune using the 7th string but not the 1st.
Personally, I use compensators on the 1st and 7th strings on the A pedal. I tune the unaltered F#s to about 'straight up' and the 'A pedals down' F#s to about -8 cents. I tune the C pedal F# and C# to -4 cents or so. There is a bit of cab drop and the F#s are close enough to work fine. The chord sounds fine.
As for why the F# on the C pedal is tuned to yet another offset ------ beats me. 
After many years of being analytical I've just found the simplest set of offsets that works and then concentrate on PLAYING in tune. There are many tuning methodologies that work fine once the bar hits the strings. If the octaves are perfect and the fifths are close to ET everything else can be fudged in either direction (toward ET or toward JI).
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 13 Jul 2010 12:17 am
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the F#s are different considering the key your playin' in : E, B or F#
precisely here that compromise is inevitable |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 13 Jul 2010 4:54 am
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so which one is the one where F# is the tonic?
I'd have thought it would be the one on the C pedal. It would drive me nuts not to have those 3 F#s close to unison with each other. To each his own.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2010 6:38 am
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| Adam Olson wrote: |
| I am not sure why F# was picked as the note to be all over the place though. |
| CrowBear Schmitt wrote: |
the F#s are different considering the key your playin' in : E, B or F#
precisely here that compromise is inevitable |
By contrast, in the meantone system everything is centered around the F#, which is the only note tuned straight up on the tuner! And all notes, if the method is followed systematically, are tuned the same way wherever they are found--e.g. all F#'s are tuned the same. (The reason F# is chosen as the "center note" is that this distributes the "offsets" more or less evenly above and below the "center line" for an E-based tuning.)
Really, the approach Crowbear mentions is not "compromise". The idea behind both ET and meantone is compromise: that notes should be tuned such that they are less than perfectly consonant in any given application (as root, third, fifth, etc.) so that they can be equally close to consonant in all applications. In other words, it shouldn't matter what key you're playing in.
Why would one use meantone rather than ET for pedal steel guitar? On PSG the same note is obtainable in many ways--different strings, frets and mechanical changes--rather than in one location only.
Because of this:
a) one note (C) can be absent in open position, and
b) a few intervals that are unlikely to be used for ergonomic reasons can afford to be out of tune in open position.
Meantone takes advantage of these facts to bring intervals closer to true consonance than they are in ET, while still providing consistency across keys.
As I said, that's what I use, and while my guitars are not free of some "cabinet drop", I find everything sounds good to my ear without any "compensation". Works for me. But lots of players who tune all kinds of ways sound very in tune to me also. With its use of a slide on the strings, PSG is a very "forgiving" instrument! It's kind of funny that steel players are so obsessive over tuning details.  |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 13 Jul 2010 9:06 am
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Why do the F#s need to match? In the real world of playing E9 do you ever play strings 1 and 7, or strings 1 and 4 (w/C pedal), together? I don't. Maybe I'm missing something important. (There are plenty of other unisons on the tops strings so I don't need 1 & 4 to do that job.)
I tune each F# so that it is in tune (JI) for the applications where it gets used. The result is pretty much what the chart shows, with one notable exception. My 4th and 7th strings match each other, only an octave apart. That's because they are both JI tuned to harmonize with the 5th string raised to C#. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2010 10:03 am
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As it happens, I do play strings 1 & 4 w/C pedal together on occasion. That's how I get the "unison licks" when I want them, as I don't raise the 1st string to G#. And there probably are occasions when I play strings 7 & 1 together.
But more to the point is that I use both strings 7 and 1 as : root of F#m, sixth of A, third of D, fifth of B, and ninth of E. If I tuned them JI for one of those uses, they'd be out for others. And if I tuned the two strings differently, a given chord would be in tune in one octave and out of tune in the other, at the same fret.
Each person's "real world of playing E9" is of course different. You (editorial you) no doubt do things I don't do, and vice versa. A tuning not biased toward one particular application keeps the available options as open as possible, and that's why I lean in that direction.
I'm no great shakes as a player, but when I learned of the meantone tuning it made sense to me, and, more importantly, when I tried it it sounded good to me.
As noted above, YMMV. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 13 Jul 2010 12:56 pm
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| Quote: |
| Why do the F#s need to match? In the real world of playing E9 do you ever play strings 1 and 7, or strings 1 and 4 (w/C pedal), together? |
Often. Particularly for the A6 chord. I could go for the high and low 6th tone in the same phrase. I do use the unison between 4C and 1 pretty often.
Tune in a way that works for you. I'll do the same. Everyone's style and expectations are different. It would bug me to death to tune all 3 F#s as differently as is shown in the chart in the original post.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2010 6:15 pm
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Adam -- the reason for that is that most pedal steel players are basically nuts. Decades of acute concentration curdles the mind. Tune them all to A-440 straight-up Equal Tempered tuning and forget all this nonsense.
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2010 8:22 pm
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| Barry Hyman wrote: |
| most pedal steel players are basically nuts. |
That fact is obvious and beyond dispute. 
But they don't differ from other humans in recognizing that ET thirds don't sound as good as JI thirds. They differ among themselves as to what is desirable or acceptable to do, or not do, about that fact. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 15 Jul 2010 9:57 am
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Thanks to Brint I have spent the last two days exploring the bottom end of the E9 tuning, and I have discovered there are good reasons to tune the seventh string (F#) to full concert pitch. Seventh string combined with either 4 or 8 lowered a half tone, plus one of the B strings (5 or 10), and you have a major triad. I had completely overlooked that.
So at least for now my tuning is mostly JI, with a touch of ET thrown in for good measure. Yikes, did I just say that? Who says you have to be consistent?
PS: If I could make a compensator on the seventh string work on my push-pull I would have the best of both worlds. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 15 Jul 2010 12:04 pm
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Go to Billy Cooper's as long as you live in Virginia and spend a couple hours with Buddy Charleton. He can play in tune and show you how too. Buddy uses compensators on his F# strings like Larry Bell but will not tell his students to do what he does. It will make sense if you listen to what Buddy says and practice enough.
_________________
Bob |
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