needing advice for fixing up a les paul

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

I know I should join a Les Paul forum but until I do I'm hoping someone can give me advice on fixing up a '72 Gibson goldtop that has literally been butchered. I don't think any of the hardware is original as well as the pickups. The body has been routed for a Floyd Rose tremelo system and has a locking nut. Mad

I'm not a collector. I just want a great sounding player. So I'll be needing a bridge and pickups. I like the P-90 sound but heard they hum more than fenders. I like the older bluesy sound of Bloomfield, Canned Heat, Freddie King and Claptonwith John Mayall's Bluesbreakers.
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

This sounds like a job for Bill Hatcher, he's a master guitar tech .... Bill what do you think?

For pickups I would think either p90's or PAF-type vintage-repro humbuckers if you're worried about noise, but not sure what you should do about the bridge. It would seem to me that you only have two choices, either get a really good repairman to block in the route and then replace the original style bridge and stud tailpiece, or live with the Rose on there. Hopefully Bill will find this and give you some advice.

Bill Bassett · From: Papamoa New Zealand

Good Morning Dave,

I chose a Gibson P-100 pickup for an old Tele rebuild. It looks just like the soapbar but is a humbucker. It will actually fit right into the route for the original humbuckers. I like the sound just fine but then again, I have nothing else to compare it to. I'm not even sure they make them anymore.
In 1998 they were available with or without the 'ears'.
Good Luck,

Bill

D Schubert · From: Columbia, MO, USA

GFS is a good source of repair/replacement parts w/o spending an arm and a leg. They have a variety of humbucker-sized pickups. I don't have a Les Paul but I've used their Vintage '59 and Mean 90 pickups for neck position in Teles, and they sound pretty good. Also have bridges, pots, knobs, etc.

http://store.guitarfetish.com/index.html

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

This is just my take - but to me, the short story is that unless you want to live with the Floyd and locking nut, this sounds like a restoration project on a guitar that probably won't be worth it unless you can either do the repairs yourself or have someone who can do them well below the typical repair market cost.

My version of the longer story - since you're going for the Bloomfield et al. sound, I'd want to put it to late 50s specs, which are tune-a-matic tailpiece, non-overwound PAF style humbucking pickups, and of course a bone nut. The potential problem is that having a good luthier properly restore to bone-nut/tune-a-matic bridge specs may be quite expensive relative to the ultimate value of the guitar. Even a nice 70s Paul isn't worth more than 3-4 grand, and the butchering you describe drops that a lot - probably down to 1/2 or even lower than that in value, even restored. I saw a real nice '72 goldtop Deluxe with its only defect being a nearly invisible professional repair of a very light neck break not selling for $1800. A seriously butchered instrument like the one you describe doesn't generally fetch a lot of money no matter what you do with it.

The exact details of the guitar matter for more concrete suggestions. Is this a '72 Les Paul Deluxe goldtop with mini-humbuckers? That's what's most common on a '72 - the Standard hadn't been reissued yet, but there were a few goldtop reissues made that year with P-90s and '56 specs, although I think they called it a '54 Reissue. A lot of people removed the mini-humbuckers or P-90s and routed out for standard humbuckers - is that what's on it now? What pickups are on it now? Is the body the 'sandwiched' body made of two pieces with a line appearing along the side of the guitar? The neck should probably be mahogany, probably several pieces - I suppose it could be maple, which is generally considered less desirable.

I've owned and played a bunch of early-mid 70s Pauls over the years, and at this point I prefer a carefully selected Les Paul Standard or Historic Reissue made between the early-mid 90s and about 2005 - I have one of each now and (to me) they blow away any 70s Paul I've played for what you say you're looking for. The 70s guitars tend to be heavy and clunky and I'm not really sure they're worth spending a lot of money restoring. If you got into it cheap and can find someone to do the restoration reasonably, it might make sense. All these things would matter to me. But I wouldn't bother trying to do a serious restoration on a real heavy sandwiched-body, maple neck version.

If you don't care about cosmetics and there are no big problems with its playability now - frets, neck angle, and so on - one could perhaps make the changeover inexpensively. There's a big difference between doing the repairs with vs. without regard to cosmetics.

To me - a lot of ifs.

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

Not looking to spend big bucks for a restoration. I think I posted that. Just want a decent sounding player. Maybe I'll start with new pickups.

BTW the price is right and I won't have to hand over any cash. I'm working it off with gigs.
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

hey dave...sounds like a fun guitar! you ought to just start experimenting with free, cheap or donated parts. sometimes magic happens.

maybe a b bender..!?

my friends got a totally worn beat-up 78 that is a great sounding/playing guitar.

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

Yes I have lot's of possibilities.I was asking advice on another guitar forum and some guys actually desire a Les Paul with a wammy bar........

I will check the serial number when I get it this weekend. Might be one of those '54 replicas.
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps

Scott Shipley · From: The Ozark Mountains

Might be cool to fill the hole (with a maple block) and cover it with a Bigsby? There was a very cool Les-Trem stop-tailpiece-mount-tremolo for sale here on the forum a while back.
A good fill job and a refinish on the top would cover the floyd fiasco nicely!
My two cents on the pickups is that if you're after a "vintage" sound, you may not be happy with the P100's. They aren't humbucking, they are hum "cancelling," and they sound a lot darker than a standard P90.
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Ron Whitfield · From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA

A well mounted Bigsby will enhance the sustain on most any guitar, and a pair of Bare Knuckle 'Mules' will be your best (reasonably priced) bet for a great old LP sound. But a killer P90 at the neck and a Mule at the bridge might make this your players of players, Dave. Good luck!

PS, be sure to also do the '50s LP style wiring to help get that old style sound.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Some of the early LP reissues were actually leftover '50's models... I had one, it was great and wish I'd had sense to keep it. Look at the binding in the cutaway, if it's wide and completely covers the edge of the maple top, it's not a leftover 50's model. If it's narrow, the same width as around the rest of the body, and you see a little strip of the edge of the maple top that it doesn't cover (because of the top being thicker in the center), it is one of the 50's models and probably worth restoring.

Personally I think it's unlikely, I think the leftover 50's were used up by then but you never know.

What kind of pickups are on it now? If it's been routed for humbuckers, slap some good PAF reissues on and play that thing. If it's still got small pu routes for the small LP Deluxe humbuckers or soapbars, Seymour Duncan makes great vintage style replacements for those.

Leslie Ehrlich · From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

Well, I picked it up. Turns out it's a '78 and the tremelo is a Kahler. Not sure what pups are in it. It does have the wide binding on the cutaway. It feels good. I'm taking it to a gig in early June to see how it handles.

It has two sets of posts so hopefully I can find a stock bridge and tailpiece to fit. I'm a sucker for single coils so a good set of replacements P-90s might be in my future.

thanks
Dave
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Yeah, this is better than I was expecting to see. Looking at that picture, I'd leave it alone - it is what it is, and it looks pretty cool as-is. Kahlers sound good to me - they're not generally set to float like a Floyd. The locking nut - well you could always just remove the clamps to let the string vibrate freely. Or not.

A '78 is not going to be made from 50s leftover parts. A standard P-90 will not fit into the standard humbucker pickup routings, and even though they sound great, they tend to hum like crazy. If the pickups sound good, why mess with them? If they're heavily overwound and too midrangey, perhaps an authentic PAF style repro would be a good idea. That's the sound of Flag/Super-Session Bloomfield, Page, Duane, Dickie, or Beano-era Clapton.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

That's not a bad-looking Les Paul. From what I find on the web, all Kahlers require a shallow route http://www.wammiworld.com/Routing.html
but nothing like you'd find with a Floyd Rose. I'd just leave it. According to info, the Kahler also uses a behind the nut lock which leaves the original nut intact, looks like you've got that...so you could just remove the top clamp like Dave said.

If you don't like the pickups... measure the DC resistance, anything over around 7K is overwound for a standard humbucker, and even if they are around 7k they might have ceramic magnets instead of alnico so you can't tell everything from the resistance readings, but if you don't like them for whatever reason, there are so many options.

I don't know why Dave and some people say P90's "hum like crazy", that hasn't been my experience. Strat's "hum like crazy" and an awful lot of people manage to play them. I played an original '57 Les Paul Special and a '64 Gibson SG Special, both with P90's, for quite a while with some loud bands with no problem, and I hate hum. If you have a buddy who's got a guitar with P90's it might be a good idea to ask him to drop by and bring his guitar, let you try it out regarding hum problems.

The original P90 won't fit the large humbucker route you've got, but Seymour Duncan and TV Jones make high-quality P90 repros in the large humbucker size, should you go that way. They also make Gretsch Filtertron repros that fit in large humbucker size if you think you might want that, as well as hundreds of regular humbuckers of course.

And as Dave said, the chance of a '78 being made from the '50's parts is slim to none, closer to the "none" side.

Looks to me like you got a pretty good guitar. I'd only think about a possible pickup change and play it.

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

Maybe when I said it was "butchered" in the first post it made it sound worse than it is.

Anyhow the price was right. I don't have to pay cash, just play some gigs to pay it off. I bought it from the bandleader and the price we decided is less than half the value of a '78 in original condition! Very Happy

I feel good about it.
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Great deal! Very Happy

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I say that P-90s tend to hum like crazy because that's been my experience - I've owned a lot of guitars with them - mostly 50s and 50s Gibsons - and most hummed more than the typical single-coil. My experience has been that the noise floor on most was something like 50-100% more than a typical Strat or Tele. I compared them directly with the same amp and settings.

But there have been exceptions. I had a '56 Junior which had a hum level comparable to one of my Strats, which is very workable and I made a mistake trading that guitar. But then there was a '58 Junior, '65 SG Junior, and '53 Goldtop which just hummed like nobody's business. They can be worked with - by angling just right, using a noise gate, or whatever. But it got to the point where it was more trouble than it was worth, to me.

I think the bigger problem here is that this guitar is routed for a humbucker. Various companies make a P-90 style pickup that fits into a standard humbucker rout - for example Duncan has the Phat Cat SPH-901 - http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/electric/specialized/progressive/sph901_phat_cat/ - if you want to try something like this out. A pair is set for humbucking with both pickups on - I heard a set of these, they sounded good. I didn't do a careful analysis of the hum level, though - it wasn't my guitar.

Dave, that looks like a nice Paul. Yup, when someone says 'butchered', I'm expecting the worst - you can't believe some of the butchering I've seen of nice old instruments. Gothic horror stories, truly.

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

I won't be routing the guitar so whatever pickups fit will be used. Maybe I'll keep the one I have if they sound good at the gig.
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

P90's also have much HIGHER OUTPUT than typical Fender-style single coils, you might take that into account, that more signal output, even if there MAY be more hum for some people in some situations, if you have for example 3 db more hum than a strat, and 3 db more signal, then it's the same, they're both equally louder. Personally I think the P90 puts out at least that much more signal than the typical Fender single coil, and even if there's a little more hum the increased output negates that. It also depends on what amp you use and how close you are to it, how well grounded the wiring is where you are playing, what kind of stage lighting, etc. I have played in clubs where even my humbucker pickups hummed so bad it was nearly intolerable, due to the club's lights and wiring. My ZB was nearly unplayable. You can't get away from it all the time... but of course minimizing it is preferable.

I also don't understand Dave, why you again say that the large humbucker size routes is a problem, I already gave some examples of pickup that are built into large humbucker sizes, and then you yourself did as well, so why is it a problem?

Anway, enjoy your guitar Dave Z, I think you got a good deal.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

You won't need to route the pickups, you already have the largest size routes. The other smaller pickups, such as the P90, mini-humbuckers, Gretsch Filtertron, are available in large humbucker route sized (what you have) cases. You can put any kind of pickup you want in there (except the original Charlie Christian bar magnet pickup) without routing anything.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Jim - I assume you added that statement about Duncan and TV Jones retrofit P-90s while I was writing. I didn't see it there when I read your initial posting - you did edit the post. If I had seen that, I would have acknowledged it.

I didn't mean to get into a long diatribe about P-90 pickups. I love 'em too, but my experience is that they tend to hum quite a bit more, yours isn't. No biggie.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

I usually edit to fix spelling or clarify wording... I thought I had that there, but either way... no biggie as you said.

Just out of curiosity Dave, what amps where you using? I was playing original Blackface Fenders, usually a Twin Reverb and a Vibrolux Reverb, a new-at-the-time 140 watt Music Man, and occasionally a Lab Series L5. No hum problem with any of them... My '71 Strat hummed worse.

Oh well, as you say, YMMV.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

By the way I also had a Les Paul Special with those "hum canceling" P100's, I didn't like them much.

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