What constitutes right and wrong notes AND chords

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Sorry b0b if this is in the wrong section, I just can't quite figure WHERE to put it (That isn't painful)

Well after listening to some YouTube "offering" this past week, I've decided to air some of my views on "Stylistic Interpretation" as opposed to, what I would deem, laziness, lack of diligence and just plain taking liberties with established melodies.

The first time this apparent trend came to my attention was MANY years ago, but now it's getting to the stage where newcomers are being taught and learning from sources that themselves are incorrect.

The future of the REAL melody of a lot of our repertoire of tunes is in grave danger of being lost, UNLESS we, one and all, guard the principles of composer's intent, flavoured with accepted grace notes, ornamentation and the changing of phrasing etc. BUT NOT rewriting the melody to suit either the player's limitations or the tuning in use.

It's unfair to point out particular examples by name, suffice to say that this week a viewing of "Beyond the Reef" on YouTube upset me, and whilst the new player that made it is obviously dedicated and has a good heart, unfortunately he played the tune with the second 8 bars as the first and second parts, completely missing the correct notes at the end of bar 7 and substituting them for the notes at bar 15. It would be impossible to sing the lyrics to the arrangement he played and also impossible to recognise the tune from just the chord sequence.(Which was also incorrect)
He learned the tune from a book that had the wrong melody and chords printed as notation, and he was also influenced by another YouTube video of the tune that was also incorrect.

You may challenge (as he did) my right to say what is correct or not, the ORIGINAL sheet music SHOULD be correct barring the odd error that CAN occur, and the definitive recorded versions also set the guideline to the accepted norm of the interpretation of phrasing.

There are those in our community who are experts in The aspect of the listener's subliminal participation in the performance.. I needn't tell them about the listener's tendency to "Switch off" to unfamiliar content. Subconsciously the listener is singing the tune/song and when the performed version differs from the recalled version, the listener either updates the remembered one to INCLUDE the NEW interpretation, or dismisses it as not being close enough to the original. In the case of the latter, the attention then wanders to the next point of interest.

One salient fact to ponder is that the traditionalists right across the broad spectrum of the music scene, stick as closely as possible to the original melody and competitions are judged based on the ability to interpret the composer's intent, dexterity of performance, usage of embellishments and ornamentation, and they rigorously stick to these criteria. Thus preserving their heritage.

I just cannot go along with the school of thought that believes that omitting or changing notes from a tune is an acceptable practise.

I have dedicated today to making a video, playing and explaining the structure of "Beyond the Reef" and I'll post it on YouTube, just to help the young lad understand the tune a little better.

Had I gone to the studio ad worked on some album material I have in hand, I WOULD have earned ?... well what's the current rate for producer/arrangers in the UK music scene ?
But instead, with the love of my instrument and its future in mind, I've written an article for our magazine on this subject and, available to all..FREE, made an instructional video for "Beyond the Reef".

And before ANYONE post it, YES I know i'm arrogant, self opinionated and generally denigrated by many who see me as a threat to the centric system THEY belong to.
Oops I forgot pompous and bombastic not to mention vitriolic
I feel SURE that someone will come up with some more suitable adjectives
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Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

Jazz and artistic license aside, I think what happens is a wrong chord is heard and the melody is re written to fit the wrong chord.

As a solo piece, it is what it is, but it becomes a problem for a sideman who has a good ear, knows the tune and has to play down.

richard burton · From: Britain

I was in a trio for a few years, and I had to modify my playing to just two chords, C and F, as those were the only two chords that the guitar player/singer knew.
He never felt the need to learn minor chords, just blazed away all night with 'Fish and Chips' Shocked

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

Been there , done that too Richard.
I worked a couple gigs with a chick singer who told me she had a "golden throat" and can sing anything.

The first time I played a diminished passing chord I got the death stare ...

c c johnson · From: killeen,tx usa * R.I.P.

I think we have all been through this. For 24 yrs I played in a country band where the fiddles and the take off guitar stuck with the melody. When I came in I had to take libertys with the melody in order to sprice up the dancers. In hawaiian bands as the only lead I stayed with the melody. On my solo gigs using trax I do the first chorus with the melody, the 2nd is adlib all the way but the melody is there to a certain extent. The 3rd chorus is whatever hits me until the release and then I stick to the melody. All this may not have anything to do with Bas' orig post however one of the things that I feel killed steel guitar in HI for many yrs is that you could walk into many many clubs and hear the same songs played just alike. There seemed to be a law against freedom of expression. cc

c c johnson · From: killeen,tx usa * R.I.P.

I missed one of the points I wished to make. I believe a student or a new player should learn the correct melody and then do his thing with the song. Any one confused as I am? cc

Gil Berry · From: Westminster, CA, USA

Hmmmm....have you listened to the singing of our national anthem at sports venues lately? I cringe when I hear what some singers/arrangers have done to standards; I understand your disgust. On the other hand, some older songs benefit (imho) from new arranging. I recall a TV episode of the Smothers' Brothers once in which they did their new version of "Down in the Valley", incorporating many moving chord changes. That two-chord simple song became an entirely new and much more listenable melody and I doubt even the author of the original song (???) would have objected. So, maybe sometimes more than just a little poetic license is acceptable?

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Rich Peterson · From: Moorhead, MN

Bent, most of us have endured some misery for the money. I used to gig with bands that could not count measures and follow the chord progression. If I didn't follow the melody, they got completely lost. But it did teach me the importance of the melody and how to dress it up with harmony, expression, phrasing and playing techniques.

Some years ago, I worked in a band with another lead guitarist who was afraid of doing instrumentals. He'd had an experience of an audience getting angry when he played three instrumentals in a row, so he didn't want to do any at all. But I think they'd gotten angry because he put so many flourishes in his playing that they couldn't hear any melody. Most people older than me dance to the melody, not to the bass and drums.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

richard burton · From: Britain

Bent,
Basil's spot on when he says that it was my 'bread and butter' Very Happy

The money was quite good with the trio, and when I was with them I learned that audiences don't give a hoot if you are playing the right chords or not, they just want to line-dance all night.

My real horror story is the years I played with someone who insisted that his 12 string guitar (which had a fixed bridge, therefore no possibility of adjusting the intonation) was in tune, because his digital tuning device had cost him big money.
He tuned it open, then put a capo on it, which had a tendency to pull the strings sharp.

I had to play in between the frets on my steel to be anywhere near in tune with his guitar.

Skip Ellis · From: Bradenton, Fl USA

I once worked with a saxophonist turned organist who maintained that you could play 'Misty' with 3 chords. I didn't stay with him long.
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Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

I think people are missing Basil's point. We're not talking about incompetent musicians who can't play more than three chords, we're talking about competent musicians who chose to play the wrong chords.

Basil is a proponent of playing along instrumentally with the song as it would be sung. The audience will probably know the song and will be singing along in their heads. If you introduce a chord in the wrong place it will immediately jar.

That having been said, there are two different ways of playing an accompaniment: the one is playing the right chords as they're written: the other, which is more prevalent in jazz and dance bands, is to use some substitute chords and add chords to progress between the main chords, so you end up with an arrangement with twice or three times the number of chords.

I learnt all my Hawaiian songs from the vocals, not the sheet music, so if I play the wrong chords, or miss out a sequence, it's most likely to be from bad memory. Embarassed

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

I agree, Alan. Basil is talking about misinformation on the internet... wrong chords, wrong melody, wrong arrangement of a song's sections, incorrect tablature, etc.... and how beginners often learn bogus versions from youtube and other net sources. Playing one's "own style" is one thing, but rewriting and dumbing down a song is something very different. I think players should get the sheet music or listen to the original recording and use their Ears, or if necessary go to the internet and check/compare several versions of a song. Choose carefully. Oh Well

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Bill McCloskey · Posted 28 Feb 2010 2:28 pm

I think this is what Pete Seeger called "the folk process", extrapolated to encompass the 21st century.

Always was thus.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

A LOT of things are commonly done "wrongly".

Sleepwalk is usually done differently in a couple sections. Ab in stead of Fm, or a couple other things.

Steel Guitar Rag is too commonly making the first four bars I 4 1 5 1 instead of 1 1 1 5 1.

Bad music of course is subject to the individual.

I can see playing different chords to avoid ASCAP or BMI problems in live performance.

Just a quick reply as I'm doing chores and noticed it.

Smile

EJL

Stuart Legg

Stuart Legg · Last edited by Stuart Legg on 28 Feb 2010 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

Charles Davidson · From: Phenix City Alabama, USA

Eric,What's your secret,How do you do chores and read the forum at the same time ? YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I agree with your concern that misinformation can lead to changes in songs, but I don't think the issue is as simple as this sweeping universal statement makes it out to be:

Roual Ranes · From: Atlanta, Texas, USA

I'M SO LONESOME I COULD CRY fits in here somewhere.

Howard Kalish · From: Austin, Tx USA

Roual – Funny you should mention that song. I used to play a weekly gig with Jimmy Day and we had sit-ins every week. One time a real good guitar player got up with us and I’m So Lonesome I Could Cry got called. Jimmy was doing it traditionally and the guitar player started putting that Major 7th to a 6th walk down thing in there. Jimmy turned to him and said, I know all those chords too, but they don’t go in this song.

The issue Basil raises has always gone on in one form or another since the beginning, I’m sure. The folk process indeed. I read something about Bob Wills, I think in the biography by Charles Townsend, where he and some of his band were having dinner in a restaurant and the band there started playing San Antonio Rose, which was a big hit for Bing Crosby at the time. They played it wrong. Bob had one of his guys go up and tell them and they showed him the music, which was incorrect. Supposedly, Bob called Irving Berlin, who had the publishing, on the phone and told him to correct it, which he did.

Ever hear or play with a band that does Amarillo By Morning without the 3 minor chord? I have.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

A couple of the replies use the terminology "The Folk Process" although not familiar to me, the competitive traditional music scene is.

In competitions worldwide the stars of Accordion, Fiddle, Mandolin, Button Continental Accordion and many other instruments are judged in their respective competitions for the attributes I outlined in my original post above. AND marked down for deviations from the accepted norm. This is not just a fringe group, these competitions for World or National champion status comprise of thousands of musicians worldwide, all understanding the necessity of the "Correct" melody. I think a leaf should be taken out of their book and maybe, just maybe we will help preserve music in general..

I realise that in Jazz the melody is improvised to a great extent, but in most instances that occurs after the melody has been established in the first time through the tune.. I Know, not always, but more often than not.
To play jazz, one has to be a "Musician" and most in THAT category already know the "ins and outs" of what we're discussing here..

Ken Lang · From: Simi Valley, Ca

Last fall a guy and his wife, who I used to play together with, myself, and a couple locals played a show in Western NY. He was doing George Strait's "The chair." He insisted in alternating the 6th chord where the song just bangs out the straight Root chord. "Too boring to play the same old chord", he said.

He was trying to get back to his roots, playing country music. He hasn't made it back yet, not understanding the pure simpleness of a sustained chord in country music.

The phrase, "I know those chords too, but they don't fit here." is perfect.
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Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

Another issue which I see frequently is younger players have learned songs from remakes which were altered, believing what they heard was the original.
I have to plead guilty to playing "Right or Wrong" for many years thinking it was a Wills original. The Emmett Miller version preceded Wills. There have been quite a few subsequent hits on the song and different generations could have thought they were learning the original.
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