Which Way To Go - S12, S14, Uni, Tuning, Versatility, What??

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Go easy on me folks, but I DO need help.

As a relative "newbie" to the PSG, my purchase, some three years ago, of a D10 was predicated upon the stated "versatility" of the double neck by a very well known player and member of the Forum. My background is with the playing of jazz guitar (a tad above "midlin") but my head is "into" both the country and jazz genres. I now find that switching between necks is akin to learning two instruments. I'm thinking that, perhaps, it's time for a change.

I've done a reasonable amount of searching for the "ultimate" combination in a single neck instrument but find the volume of disconnected information staggering thus I'm in need of some guidance. Like the D10 (to a "newbie") the number of possible levers and pedals on a single neck can, initially, be quite intimidating as are the multitude of copedants used by our members. Nonetheless, SOMEWHERE within that vast array of possibilities there should be THAT ONE configuration - strings plus tuning - which should satisfy my needs and with an emphasis on the jazz capabilities of the instrument. This is where the "guidance" comes in.

If it helps to understand "where my head is at" I should state that I use FOUR picks - instead of three - thus expanding the opportunities for getting extended chords/voicings/inversions, etc.. S12 - even an S14?

Am I asking too much for a "one size fits all" instrument or will the compromise, if any, be too much to accept? Will I ultimately be better served by biting the bullet and staying with the D10 with the addition of pedals and levers? I now have 8 plus 5. I know that, should many of you respond, I'll get a wide variety of opinions and suggestions. I'll seriously consider any and all of them and continue further, detailed, research based upon your recommendations.

Respectfully and thankfully,

Richard

Tim Davidson · From: Glasgow, UK

I think you could get everything you need from a Universal 12. I've heard 14 strings is excessive - the bottom end is too much like a bass string for it to be a welcome addition.

I think you could get someone to build you a universal or adapt one if you buy second hand.

I've heard from several top players that the universal is the way forward and that they lose nothing but back ache from hauling a double neck around. Maurice Anderson has long advocated the single neck Universal and after all - he's Mr Jazz chords!

Anyway, sure you'll get plenty of others suggestions

Hope you find a happy solution

T
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Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Stick with a D10 and practice more. There are no real shortcuts to being a good player.
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Bob

Christopher Woitach · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I'm in a similar place - jazz guitarist (pro for years), newer to PSG than you (a few months). I went for an S-12 Universal (mine is a little bit of a Frankenstein, 6 x 5). The ability to use both necks at the same time (I think one big guitar, actually), the ease of transition to a E9-like neck from guitar, and the multitude of chords available all over the neck makes the Universal approach the best choice for me. I use a thumb and three fingerpicks, which I hate - can't deny the tone difference, so I'm sticking with them.

I use a copedent that Reese sent me to match my being two pedals short, not the Jeff Newman setup, so I don't know anything about that.

I've started playing Pat Martino's Activities, various jazz tunes, and have been finding some nice pockets that my little jazz brain can deal with in 12 keys - all of which float in between E9 and B6.

I really like Universal - it suits the way I think, anyway.
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Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Hi Richard,

click on LINKS, then ARTICLES, then MAurice Anderson's article "Pedal Steel Guitar, Back and to the Future"
This will give you lots of information. It helped me decide.

I came from a music school/jazz band background, if that makes any difference. Rock n Roll electric guitar on weekends for money. Jazz for fun and, college credits kept me out of Viet Nam.

Also, I started on non PSG, a T8 stringmaster. The C6 neck was the easiest for me to play all kinds of music.
Anyhow, I have an SU 12, 8 and 5, tuned Bb6/Eb9. The chords and intervals are endless. The pedal/knee combinations are surprising. Seems like I find something new every day.

As far as picks and such, 3 pics and a thumb, facilitate some big grips. The thumb is available for the lower strings, and three fingers can find plenty to do. (watch Buzz Evans videos on youTube)

I, too, believe that 14 strings, are not a requirement. Let the bass player play those! Those really low strings are floppy, hard to tune and hard to play in tune. That is my superstition!

All the notes are there. E9 sounds and changes are there, too.

I really don't think about which tuning I am in. I have one big tuning and play it. I do not have a lock and do not want one.

You will need to decide whether you want the open tuning to be Bb6 or Eb9 or E9.
I chose the Bb6 as the open tuning because I get a 6th interval on string2 and a 2nd interval on string 1. Bb69 chord on the top 5 open strings.

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

I started a few years ago on E9. Once I was comfortable with a 3X5, I got a U12 E9/B6 8X5. This is a really cool single neck guitar with almost all of the "standard" E9 and C6 pedal and lever changes. Since they're all on the same changer, there are combinations that are not readily available on many D10's. It got me interested in the C6 side of things enough though, that I recently got a D10 8X7.
The difficulty of the U12 at first for me was adapting to the missing 9th D string. Problem is once you get used to the U12, you work around alternates for the D with 8 or 10 and dont miss it after a while. Then I go back to E9, and I hit that D at all the wrong times Laughing

Theres lots of great jazz on E9 using that 9th D though!
I think you would like U12. You can play any style on any guitar in reality, so whatever puts the wind in your sails, go with it.

Clete

Larry Robertson · From: Denver, Colorado, USA

I also started psg on d10's. I switched to U12 because I wanted lighter guitars to move. I have since found the U12 to be the lightest option that allows those big fat jazz voicings on the lower end. With 7 & 5 I have lots of choices on chord voicings. I too look at it as one big tuning with lots of pedals, which allows chords that are not available on an s10 or even Xtended E9 with only 3 & 4. I have never tried a 14 string, but I am now committed to U12. I bought a second one to minimized moving guitars. One stays at home, one in the car, same setup on both.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Richard,

It's easy to be overwhelmed by too many strings, too many pedals and too many levers. I've recently come round from a D-12 with "everything" to an S-8 that has about 80% of C6th and E9th on 1/3 as many strings.

D6/G

I'm not recommending my copedent to you or anyone else. I'm just saying that if you think carefully about what you really need, you might do well with much less than the conventional wisdom would indicate.
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Franklin · Posted 3 Apr 2010 7:37 am

Bob Hofnar said, "There are no short cuts to becoming a great player.....100% truth!

Richard, you already own a D10 which has been proven to work well in all fields of music. Since you are a beginning steel guitarist....Advising you to change tunings instead of learning how to play what you already own may be the worst advice we could give you. Especially if you have already invested three years of your time.

Richard, I never get asked to play Jazz in a country song nor do I get asked to play Country licks in a Jazz setting.....Switching necks is easy. Switching styles on a D10 is no different than switching the thought process on a universal tuning.....You have to learn which intervals sound like the music you prefer playing and tasteful musicians always remain within the boundaries of the songs style.......Its all on your guitar.....Its also on other tunings.....No matter what tuning you play, the Jazz, Rock, Blues, Pop, or Country learning curve remains the same.

To know that you are not alone, It took me five years to zero in on the Jazz function of the C6th. Up to that my primary focus was on the E9th because it was simple to comprehend......I once contemplated switching to a universal or dropping the C6th altogether....A friend, Jack Mollette encouraged me to do what Bob and I are saying......Don't chase tunings, chase the music instead.....Yes, its a difficult journey. IMO that is what makes the instrument so much fun. Doors are pretty much slow to open, but when they do, what a rush!

Paul Franklin

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

I agree with Paul Franklin. However I would add this...If you have not already come too far to make this change then forget it but I think B6th is easier to learn than C6th if you're coming from E9 or standard guitar because some of the main positions are the same. (G at the third fret and so on)
I can tell you from experience that if you are more interested in jazzy music then country you'll be sorry you chose to go with universal. I was so bothered by having to hold a knee lever in all the time that I finally went to straight B6th (with 11 strings) on my S12. I don't play too many country gigs but when I do I can easily do it on my B neck and nobody in the audience or the band has any idea that I'm playing the "wrong" neck. They always just say, "God, I love that instrument. What do call that thing?"
Also, I have some E9 type changes on my guitar. I have 3 pedals (1,2 & 3) that do the same thing to B triad that the pedals of an E9 do to the E triad and it works fairly well for the hard core honky tonk sound. Don

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

One of the biggest misunderstandings people have of pedal steel as they get started is that they think of the bar as a capo and look for everything in one spot. For instance thinking there is a need for a pedal or lever to make a minor chord. Minor chords are everywhere there is a minor 3rd and a major 3rd interval. There are only 12 notes in western music. If you know your tuning you can find them and play any music you want. Looking for a special pedal or lever instead moving the bar can be like chasing your tail.

If a U12 works for somebody that is great but to say that it is more flexable and has everything a D10 has is just not true. There are give and takes with every tuning or set up. I started with a U12 and gave it up once I got my personal musical needs in focus. I found the D10 to be more suitable to the non standard playing I do. For instance the standard E9 with the B pedal in is a perfect pentatonic scale. Great for quartal chord voicings. I'm not into the extended lower range available on a U12 or standard C6. So with a D10 I took the low C off and added a middle D string on the C neck without screwing anything up on my E neck.

A tuning that looks good on a spread sheet may not be the best in practical application.
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Bob

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

b0b, Your tuning looks interesting. It has just about everything I use regularly and it appears it would be a lightweight contraption especially if it were keyless. Is it? Why did you chose to do it in D6? Don

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

My, Oh, My! Just the kinds of input that I was looking for. I'm not locked into anything at the moment. I pride myself upon doing my homework thus I'm not turning a blind eye toward any of the suggestions. Most surprising - and gratifying - are the truly thoughtful responses toward my staying with the D10.

Given my penchant for thoroughness, there will NOT be a rush to judgement followed by a post declaring that I've just bought a "S18 with 12 plus 10"! Just kidding, of course.

Time to woodshed - both with my D10 and with the gracious information supplied by all of you. Continue to "bring it on" - I'm a glutton for punishment.

Respectfully,

Richard

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Bob Hofnar -

Like you, I'm not enamored with the 10th string C on the C6th neck. Where did you add the "D"? I assume that it was between the C-E pairs. But which?

Richard

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Richard,
I put a D in the 7th string and 1st string spots on my C6 neck. I do not have the same low root chord movement available as a standard C6 or U12 or some of the more "strumable" grips. It works for me but is not really better.
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Bob

Franklin · Posted 3 Apr 2010 12:49 pm

Richard,

Many have opted away from the low C note including Chalker......Harmonically a low D is great. Scale wise putting the D note between the E and C notes like Buddy sometimes uses certainly opens up the middle of the tuning. I opted to leave the open tuning as is.....Instead, on a floor pedal I raise the F to A,the A to C, and the C to D to change the tuning when I desire those scale notes..... Lots of great choices either way.

I have to disagree with Bob H. Adding the D note on top "is" better. By "better" I mean this D string on top gives players many more options than the G note provides.....Emmons was the first to add it to the C6th tuning. I took this a step farther by lowering the D to C# and the E to D on a knee lever. This lever gives me a three string chromatic option which is great for the more complicated Jazz riffs.....With that lever activated along with the floor pedal the tuning is C#,D, C, A, G, E, D, C, A, C. Playing heads like "Donna Lee" and Corea's "Got A Match" are a piece of cake with these pedals in place. Now these changes essentially provide a pentatonic tuning with a Chromatic option. Wonderful for modern Jazz.....I put the floor pedal next to the pedal that lowers the G to F#. See how the lydian mode is easily played across the tuning....C lydian scale is C,D, E, F#, G, A, B, C......The standard lever that lowers the C to B provides the missing element to the mode.

That's probably enough theory for the day.

PF

Geoff Cline · From: Southwest France

FWIW, this is the best thread I've read on the Forum. Particular thanks to Bob H. and Paul F. Good stuff!

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

Paul,
Is that pedal you mentioned that raises the C to D, the F to A and the A to C particularly difficult to press down?

Franklin · Posted 3 Apr 2010 1:01 pm

Don,

Not at all.

Paul

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

By all means - DON'T STOP NOW!

Richard

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

Thanks Paul. Is there a noticeable difference in the tonal quality of the F string when its in the tightened up A position? Also, may I ask what gauge string you're using for the F string? Thanks, Don

Franklin · Posted 3 Apr 2010 1:32 pm

Don,

I use a 54 gauge which is pretty standard....I also lower that string a whole tone from F to Eb without the string fatiguing or any tuning problems......When you ask about tone I am reluctant to answer......I hear a tonal difference in every note no matter what the gauge is. For instance, I hear a difference in moving the bar back one fret to lower the third string than when I just use the lever to lower that string a half tone.......I think you are wondering if it sounds like the A string does and I would have to say not exactly....It is just as loud, and it sustains and cuts through just as well as the 8th string does. When recording the two options for the A note, most ears would have a hard time distinguishing between the two. Losing your tone is not a problem.

PF

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

Thanks Paul, Don

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