Single string runs when you are lost?

Sherman Willden · From: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA

When you are not sure of the chord structure do you just follow the song using single string and single note runs? The two or three note runs I try sound awful.

Thanks;

Sherman
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It is easy to play the steel guitar. Playing so that the audience finds it pleasing is the difficult act.

Olli Haavisto · From: Jarvenpaa,Finland

Lost ?
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

If I'm not sure of the chord-structure of a song I'll listen to it once through - then the 'changes' will become apparent (always assuming that the band I'm playing with knows it in the first place!!! Whoa!

)

Then, if it's appropriate, I can enter during the second verse (or whatever) and everyone will thank me for showing such restraint and not charging in and playing all over the song! Very Happy

The more you learn to use your ears and to recognice patterns, the less you'll find youself getting 'lost'.
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Nic du Toit · From: Milnerton, Cape, South Africa

If you're lost.....you're lost!.......
Don't play, or try to fake anything...... changes are it will be all wrong anyway.....Like Roger said....wait and listen until you get the chord structure.
Rather play it safe.
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James Mayer · Posted 17 Feb 2010 3:16 pm

I can hear simple songs, but I get lost all the time and fake it with single note runs, once I figure out what key to play in. But then again, I'm not a pro.

Al Udeen · From: maple grove mn usa

Lost in the feeling always sounded good to me!

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Well, that's fine, James - the main thing is to have fun as long as you're doing it for your own amusement. If you're doing a gigs and getting paid, then you need to strive for a higher level.

Training your ears to recognise chord sequences isn't as hard as it might sound, but it does take some application. Learn to hear the basic 1, 4 and 5 chords first (the ones we tend to encounter in the more basic traditional country or rock and roll songs). You could do this by following a chord chart to a song you're familiar with as you listen to a recording. The relationship between those basic changes will become apparent, and then you'll recognise that pattern as it applies to another piece of music.

As Nic says, you can't just blunder around on a wing and a prayer - a seasoned musician might, on rare occasions, find himself fumbling a bit, but he has a wealth of experience in hearing leading tones, and can usually steer back to safe waters. That capacity may be a little way off in your future, but a little work will pay dividends.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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James Mayer · Posted 17 Feb 2010 3:40 pm

I've been practicing more with band-in-a-box to try and recognize changes. Honestly, my band doesn't play many songs with simple changes. There's only a handful that aren't all over the place with multiple modulations. A lot of time they are also too busy to really throw in a lot of steel work so I end up humming something and trying to play it. I can't hum chords............

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

It sounds as if you'd benefit from writing yourself a basic chord chart for the more obscure songs in your band's repertoire....

" I can't hum chords............"

No, you can't - but the chord changes will dictate what your melodic options are and, more importantly, what they're not!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Jason Hull · Posted 17 Feb 2010 3:45 pm

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Well said, Jason!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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James Mayer · Posted 17 Feb 2010 4:02 pm

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

I dont think even the best players can say they always know where they are, what they are doing , and where they are going next at all times. for example:

"I paint myself into a corner somewhere in the heat of battle with single string runs. Not to come out of this is to be left feeling somewhat akin to the village idiot. Many people are not aware that I do this, believing that I always know what I am doing and have my approach to playing well planned. This is just partly true, but, I, too, am human."
-Buddy Emmons

thats not exactly the same as being "lost" but its darn close especially the lne about not coming out of it and feeling like the village idiot. I am sure we all have stock licks we can play over the root till something more interesting occurs to us no?
sometimes your thrown into a song without time to get the chord changes right? No shame in being "lost" Sherman.

I have a Jaydee Maness dvd where he talks a little, not about being lost, but about things you can play on the first pass till you find the melody or chord changes so i dont think its an unusual or unreasonable question possed by the original poster.

James also bring up a good point. I learned a ton of classic country licks that worked wonders over classic country chord changes...only to never or rarely encounter those chord changes in the more rock oriented music I was playing.

heres a question: when you are improvising...are you lost by definition? if you know where you are and where your going next you are not improvising are you? if you dont know where you are and what you are going to do next you are lost no? Laughing

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

I think all of us have pet phrases and our own little "boxes" to get us thru. Even when I listen to the greats, I hear little snippets of how they think, and if you take time to break down one of their magic solos, the more you study it, the more logical it becomes. There are certain little riffs or note combinations that work over a lot of chord changes, and the more of these you know, the less you are "lost." I have always heard that you are never but a half step either way from a safe note. I have heard also that there are no wrong notes if you can phrase your way out of it. I don't challenge either of these views. The most satisfying (to me) is to not have to think about it and be at ease when I play. (It doesn't always work out that way.)
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Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

I just sit there and look dumb until the root comes back.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

This has been an interesting thread to read, and Roger, Jason, and Clyde have laid down some wisdom that players new to professional situations should try to digest.

Personally, I frequently fake myself through a solo the way Clyde describes the "one fret away from the correct note" technique, Wink

and other familiar pockets based on scale fragments that you know will generally lead you to the next correct chord. The success or failure of those manuvers can be described as how good a line of bulls**t you have. Laughing

Thanks, carry on dudes.
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Barry Hyman · From: upstate New York, USA

I don't like to play anything on pedal steel in public until I know the changes, because I always prefer to have harmony notes available from the current chord on nearby strings when I am playing melodies. (It is easier for me to play unfamiliar songs on six-string guitar because then I usually play single note melodies from the scale, and I can sound passable while still learning the changes as long as I know the right scale. But on steel I am really only comfortable if I know every single chord in advance.)

However once a month one of my bands plays a so-called "Open Jam" where anyone can get up to sing or play. But it's not an open mic -- they get up, but those of us in the band who want to can stay on stage and accompany them. I usually sit there all night and play along with everybody, which means I often play both cover tunes and originals I have never heard before, in front of a large and attentive audience!

If I can hear the bass (and if the bass player knows the changes!) I am usually safe, because most of the songs are country, bluegrass, folk, blues, or acoustic rock, so they don't change key very often, the chords are typically fairly simple and predictable, and I mostly can have them memorized by the second verse. (If they were complex songs that changed key often in unpredictable ways, like what James is talking about, then I wouldn't be able to do this, of course.)

Hearing changes is easiest when you can hear the bass. (Assuming the bass player is good, plays clearly, and that he/she knows the song!) If the bass player is lost, the job becomes nearly impossible, especially if the rhythm guitar is lost in the mix.

Learning to recognize chord changes starts with being able to hear I, IV, and V, as Roger says. (For example, G, C, and D in the key of G.) Then one learns to recognize the three minor chords in the key, although it takes most people a while to be able to tell right away which of the three minor chords it is. Most difficult is recognizing the chords that are not in the key. Luckily, most songwriters don't add any old random chord to the middle of their song, however, so after a while we learn to hear patterns -- the unfamiliar chord is the same as the unfamiliar borrowed chord that was in some other song. Most borrowed chords (chords that are not in the key and that are "borrowed" from another key) are either the I7 (such as G7 in the key of G) or the II7 (A7 in the key of G) or the VII (an F chord in the key of G), so players who have played a lot of different songs over the years learn to quickly react when a borrowed chord pops up, because it is almost always a musical cliche that has been used in other songs.

Of course none of this works in a really unpredictable song. I'm talking about country, bluegrass, folk, acoustic rock, or blues, as I said. If it is a complex jazz or pop tune, or a weird and non-stereotypical modern rock song, get a chart or insist on a rehearsal.
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George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

Jeff Newman showed how to play scale speed picking patterns that were within the scale of the key the song was in. He played to tracks with all sorts of different chord patterns, but played the exact same scale licks. It sounded like he was right in there without missing a chord, but he was cheating, in a way. Cheating is a bad word, though. The two finger, two string scale run that Weldon Myrick put out for sale at one time, is an example of this. If you just keep moving in the scales of the key the song is in, it sounds like you know what you are doing. I use single note picking sometimes when I have to take a turnaround on a song that I have not practiced and not sure where to go with the normal strings and pedals. For me, it makes things less complicated not having to be concerned about getting two notes to harmonize and I have to be less concerned about the pedals.

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

We're still talking single note runs here. A good exercise at home would be to take a medium tempo rhythm track and start nooding along. Then occasionally hit a note that you know is out of the chord scale and see how you can gracefully bend it up or down into something that makes musical sense. You will find a lot of times these "off" notes will yield some pretty good effects because they will be part of a diminished, augmented, or otherwise complex chord that works. We all know that some of the coolest stuff we learn is by accident.

A quick comment on Herb's system. I have heard him improvise and if he uses the one fret away approach, I could never tell it. He sounds like he knows exactly where he's going. That's what knowing your guitar and being at ease will do for you.
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Hook Moore · From: South Charleston,West Virginia

I have played a weekly jam for many years. Learn your scales, learn the notes and where they are located on your guitar and you will not fear the next unknown chord. Its rare if any of my studio sessions ever give me advance to whats being recorded. Repeating myself " learn your scales and train your ear "...
Hook
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Bobby Snell · From: Austin, Texas

Bar slams.

Billy Murdoch · From: Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.

This is a terrific thread.
I am getting great information from it.
Keep it coming Boys
Best regards
Billy

Nic du Toit · From: Milnerton, Cape, South Africa

Hank Moore's addition to the already good advice given, perhaps sums it up nicely..... your ear training will also benefit immensely.

Great thread. It's been a while since I last saw such constructive advice to a valid question.
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Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Herbster... "Carry on dudes"? It's good to see you still have some of your old SoCal roots living in you since you imigrated to Texas....JH in Va.
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James Mayer · Posted 18 Feb 2010 8:46 am

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