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Topic: scale length, who decided? |
CB Blackwell
From:
South Carolina, USA
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Posted 1 May 2009 11:21 am |
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Many different scale lengths have been used over the years, 22 1/2" 26" and many more and 24 and 24 1/4. My question is, who decided on the 24" and the 24 1/4" and what is the difference other than 1/4"? A part of steel guitar history I would like to know.
Thanks,
CB |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 May 2009 11:50 am
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That's about a long (24") as you can make them without having string breakage on a keyed guitar. (Keyless guitars can be slightly longer.)
I think the "extra quarter-inch" thing is just a gimmick. I don't hear any difference in the sound between 24" and 24 1/4". Every manufacturer tries to "one-up" the competition with some gimmick, but if any of the gimmicks were a serious advantage, players would gravitate towards just one brand...and you don't see that happening. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 1 May 2009 2:08 pm
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Here is something else to ponder.
I needed fretboards for an Excel I was rebuilding and I ordered some from Scotty in St. Louis.
Guess what scale they were?
24 1/8", isn't that something!  |
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A. J. Martinez
From:
Ca.
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Posted 1 May 2009 6:57 pm 18" scale
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| 18 inch scale...yep, thats what I`m building right now. Thats a 3/4 size guitar. It has A and B pedals .lever to drop the E`s. Keyless 8 string, the guitar is 22" long,also everything breaks down to 22" or less,so I can put it in a carry-on bag for when I fly. going through security could be an issue. so far it is about half done. when someone asks me lately...what are you making? My answer is " Mistakes". hope to finish it before July vacation. Sustain? well I guess I`ll find out. But it should be good enough, because it`s hard for me to take a vacation from my guitar. AJ |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 2 May 2009 8:26 am
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Donny,
| Quote: |
| I think the "extra quarter-inch" thing is just a gimmick. I don't hear any difference in the sound between 24" and 24 1/4". Every manufacturer tries to "one-up" the competition with some gimmick, but if any of the gimmicks were a serious advantage, players would gravitate towards just one brand...and you don't see that happening. |
I work directly with builders quite a bit and have found all of them to be very concerned with the tone of there guitars. I know of none that use "gimmicks" to make sales. First off no builders that I know are getting rich and they really do it for the love of the instrument. To say they make arbitrary modifications to increase market share is pretty insulting. Your post is the kind of uninformed statement of opinion as fact that makes it so the people that actually know the answer to the original question don't bother to post.
There is enough difference between 24 and 24 and a 1/4 inch neck that I know of one major builder that is has modified there scale length recently. Also the Excel guitar uses a very different changer system so a longer scale is quite possible.
The people that first decided on what scale length worked the best for there steels did it with extensive trial and error research. Many of those original people read the forum.
_________________
Bob
Last edited by Bob Hoffnar on 2 May 2009 8:55 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 2 May 2009 8:33 am
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| I've heard that it made avery noticeable difference when Jim Palenscar converted his MSA to 24.25" scale, like a P/P Emmons, and the Studio Pro MSA. Some really smart person will save their self the trouble and buy Jay Dee's. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 May 2009 9:26 am
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Who decided? I wasn't aware that in had been decided. Seems that every guitar I buy has a different scale length. The one I liked best was the 25" Sierra Session.
_________________
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 2 May 2009 9:50 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| That's about a long (24") as you can make them without having string breakage on a keyed guitar. (Keyless guitars can be slightly longer.) |
Well, I don't see guys breaking a lot of strings on B-Bender Telecasters (25.5" scale.) Of course, those guitars aren't strung to such a high tension as a PSG.
I think the builders try to find a compromise between tone, playability, and reliability. Longer scale does give a clearer tone, up to the point when you have to go to a lighter guage string. And I hear complaints about thin sounding 3rd strings on E9th.
Also, string length and string spacing are serious considerations for players who use slants. That's why b0b is getting an 8-string semi-universal built.
Of course, a longer scale length also means a longer, and heavier guitar. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 2 May 2009 9:58 am
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A steel guitar is just a plank with strings and a pick-up. I guess the scale length probably originated from what wood was available. If your wood came in six foot lengths you could get two three-foot instruments out of it, but if you made a 3'6" instrument it would leave 2'6" of the plank left, which might not be long enough.
Also, the shorter the instrument the more likelihood you'll be able to find strings long enough for it. This sounds silly, but I've built instruments that I've found problem finding strings for. Try finding strings for a Tromba Marina. 
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 May 2009 1:53 pm
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
Donny...Your post is the kind of uninformed statement of opinion as fact that makes it so the people that actually know the answer to the original question don't bother to post.
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Bob, to begin with, you will notice I prefaced my statements with "I think..." You do know what that means, don't you?  Bingo. It's an opinion. Maybe you don't like me expressing my opinions, but it's not your forum, so tough nuggies.
Now, let me ask you a question. Can you hear the difference that extra 1/4" in scale length supposedly makes when you hear someone playing? If you can't, and if it can't be scientifically proven in any way that it sounds better, then to me - it's a gimmick, pure and simple. You've made note that ONE manufacturer has changed their guitars accordingly. Well, that's not exactly a stampede or landslide, in my book. And as far as I know, they may have changed it because they thought it might increase sales. Note: I wouldn't necessarily hold that against them. As you've said (though I don't know how it fits into the discussion), most builders aren't getting rich. However, I can assure you that gimmickry and hype are practiced everyday by those selling something, and steel makers are no different. That's part of marketing, and maybe (because you're too close, or have to temper your words) you don't recognize it. After all, those that have allegiance and connection to builders because they're in some form of related business have to temper all their words. It would not be prudent for them to say anything negative against any of them. I'm not buying or selling stuff, and I have no such connections or allegiances, so I can say things others might not. Heaven knows, we certainly have our share of sycophants and otherwise patronizing members on the forum, those that talk like they're getting commissions for all their flowery compliments. So I like to offer alternate views which, by nature, may sometimes be negative, and I know they upset some readers. But believe it or not, others seem to appreciate an opinion that's not jaded by someone who stands to gain something, the "straight shinny", as it used to be called.
As to the claims we often hear that such-and-such is "better", well unless someone can scientifically prove these claims, or unless they have overwhelming market share, then everything is still just "opinion" and hype. What is "advertising hype"? Well, it's those things that can't really be proven. You've seen the phrases on most every builder's website. "Hand Crafted Pedal Steels" (Nice to know builders aren't using their feet or robots to make these things.) "Rock-Solid" (Yeah, definitely no aluminum or wood in that guitar.) "Professionally Built" (Sure, them pro builders are far better than those amateur guys most other companies use.) "Handmade Pickups" (Uhh...aren't they ALL? I know all of Fender's are, and they make hundreds of thousands.) See what I mean? These phrases sure sound good, but they really don't mean a heckuva lot. Gimmicks? Certain "advantages" touted by some builders (longer scales, 14-hole bellcranks, brass rollers, ball bearing whatzits, chromed fingers, single coil pickups, etc.) are completely ignored by most others. Now, since you say that builders care seriously about their products, and I have no reason to disbelieve that, can you tell me why they continue to ignore these obvious "improvements"? Could it be that they're making their own "arbitrary decisions" about what is really meaningful and important, and what isn't?
You bet your bippy!  (And if you don't agree, look up "arbitrary" in your dictionary.)
Some players and builders like things that give insignificant changes (improvements), and others happen to care only about things that make readily noticeable (significant) changes. Neither builder is necessarily better or worse, but I can assure you that both types do exist! It's just that they each have chosen their own priorities, just like you or I choose our own priorities. Maybe an extra 1/4" of scale-length will help Buddy or Tommy, or Paul or Sonny, but IN MY OPINION, I don't feel it'll do very much for most of us. I also welcome the opportunity for you to prove me wrong.
Thanks for "pushing back", and have a nice day!  |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 2 May 2009 2:16 pm
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Despite Donny's rather "aggressive"tone, he makes some valid points about marketing phraseology. I probably wouldn't call it "hype," but some of the terms do mean a lot less than they seem to.
I believe that almost all, if not all, current steel makers are also steel players. I think most of them make a steel that suits their own ideas of what the instrument should sound and feel like. Of course not everyone uses 14-hole bellcranks, because some people aren't that obsessive about timing their pulls. Some people are sufficiently annoyed by hum to want humbucking pickups.
In the six-string world, there were two standards for many years: 24 3/4" and 25 1/2" scales. About 20 years ago, some makers adopted 25" as a compromise, and it has become quite popular. But it didn't replace the others. It just means there are more options.
Why some 24 1/4" and some 24 1/8"? Because you can't get strings in .017", .0172", .0174", .0176", .0178"..... |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 May 2009 3:16 pm
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| Rich Peterson wrote: |
| Despite Donny's rather "aggressive" tone... |
Sorry. I apologize if I came off as "aggressive". I had intended merely to come off as slighty indignant in response to Mr. Hoffnar's "uninformed opinion" comment. Few people who don't play or sell for a living spend as much time as I do trying to get "informed".  |
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CB Blackwell
From:
South Carolina, USA
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Posted 2 May 2009 3:56 pm scale length
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Good Grief,
I didn't mean to open up such a can of worms. I would have to be some kind of you know what to understand all that. But still nobody has said WHO they thought actualy came up with the 24 and 24 1/4 scales. You know, was it Buddy, was it Jimmy, was it someone nobody ever heard of? Somebody out there should have this info.
CB |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 May 2009 4:16 pm
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A quarter inch difference is slight, but it does make bar slants a bit harder. I'm not sure that I could hear the difference, but I can certainly feel the difference when playing. That's why I specified 11/32" string spacing when I ordered my Williams D-12X.
I can hear the difference in Sierra's 25" scale. It amounts to nearly a fret's worth of string length in any given key. More string vibrating translates directly to longer sustain, richer tone, etc.
I don't think that anyone is making their choice of guitar based on scale length, though. Builders are also players, and they tend to build what they like to play. If I were building steel guitars, they'd have a 24 1/2" scale with 3/8" string spacing because that's the most comfortable to me. I hope that nobody would consider it a gimmick.
_________________
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 May 2009 4:31 pm Re: scale length
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| CB Blackwell wrote: |
Good Grief,
I didn't mean to open up such a can of worms. I would have to be some kind of you know what to understand all that. But still nobody has said WHO they thought actualy came up with the 24 and 24 1/4 scales. You know, was it Buddy, was it Jimmy, was it someone nobody ever heard of? Somebody out there should have this info.
CB |
The builders measured in inches because they were American. Fender's 24.5" scale broke the high G# strings often, so Sho-Bud (Shot Jackson) went to 24". Are the Emmons guitars 24.25"? If so, that was probably Buddy's decision.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video
Last edited by b0b on 2 May 2009 6:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 2 May 2009 4:53 pm
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Thank you, b0b. I think you supported my contention that it is a matter of balancing tone and reliability. And that the player building a PSG builds one the he would like to play.
But I think you mistyped a bit. What was the scale length of the Fenders again? |
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ebb
From:
nj
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Posted 2 May 2009 5:12 pm
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| my 58 400 measures 24.5" from roller bridge to roller nut. there is another 1.5" behind the bridge to the hole slotted finger but the hog rings reduce that string length to 1.125" |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 May 2009 6:09 pm
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| Rich Peterson wrote: |
| But I think you mistyped a bit. What was the scale length of the Fenders again? |
Fixed. It was 24.5". That's what my Fender 1000 is anyway, and it won't hold a high G# with a pedal pulling it to A.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Ulric Utsi-Γ
hlin
From:
Sweden
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Posted 3 May 2009 4:38 am
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It boils down to the tonal register of our instruments...guitars will settle around 22-25 or
thereabouts,with slight variations...itΒ΄s a compro-
mise,the low strings actually need longer scale
length,but that would only make for trouble at the
treble end...physics and a bit of tradition spoken
here...McUtsi |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 May 2009 9:33 am
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| Ulric has a good point. Also, remember that the steel guitar evolved from an ordinary Spanish guitar with a raised nut, so it stands to reason most steels would have stuck pretty close to the same scale dimensions at the inception. Any major changes in scale would have taken the instrument away from the typical guitar sound and range, and I'd guess that still holds true today. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 3 May 2009 1:39 pm
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| What was the scale length for the Bigsby pedal steels? That's the original model for all that came after. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 3 May 2009 2:10 pm
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I was the third party in a conversation between Lloyd Green, Jerry Brightman, and, well, me. I was so excited to be talkin' to my number 1 steel guitar hero, that, I can't Eggs Ackley remember the whole gist of that phone call. But we talked about his Fingertip. He said when he got it from Shot, it had a long scale. For some reason, which I can't remember, but maybe string breakage, he had Shot shorten it. I believe he said that you could see the "ghost" of the original keyhead. In any case, the scale length on my Fingertip is 24".
Perhaps someone with a better memory can provide the "straight skinny" on this barely remembered tale????? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 May 2009 2:42 pm
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| David Doggett wrote: |
| What was the scale length for the Bigsby pedal steels? That's the original model for all that came after. |
I've been told that they were approximately 24 1/4". |
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Danny James
From:
Summerfield Florida USA
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Posted 3 May 2009 3:51 pm
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For what it's worth the first patented pedal steel guitar is the Multi-Kord. I have four of them and the scale length is 23 inches from the center of the roller bridge to the center of the roller nut.
My earliest one we bought new in 1948 and has an all cast aluminum body with 6 strings & 4 pedals. Mine is not the earliest model though that was sold commercially.  |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 4 May 2009 12:12 am Bigsby scale lengths
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The early Bigsby guitars had a 25 inch scale. Some time in 1950 Bigsby switched to 24 1/4 (sort of) scale.
A friend here in LA took one of my 25 inch, raised graphics, eight string necks and used it as a pattern for casting new Bigsby necks without knowing exactly how much shrinkage there would be in the casting process. When the new necks were done, we compared them to those on the 1951 Vance Terry raised graphics T-8 I had at the time, and the new necks were a perfect match for the shorter scale (24 1/4 -- sorta) necks on Vance. Even the raised graphics frets that are not really where they should be transferred to where they were on the shorter scale Bigsbys.
Perhaps this is how the 24 1/4 scale came about? It is what you get when you cast an aluminum alloy neck using a full 25 inch neck as a pattern? |
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