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Topic: How good are vintage Fender pedal steels? |
Nicholai Steindler
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 7:56 am |
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Hi,
I've been wanting to start playing pedal, and for no other reason other then I really like vintage guitars I have been wanting a Fender 400 800 or 1000. I can't remember if there are any 8 string 400's I think I've seen one.
Anyways, are these decent instruments? If not, can someone suggest something relatively similar in price that is better?
Thanks! |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 9:28 am
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they are good instruments with a unique tone and a cool look, but many will suggest you get a more modern guitar for your first pedal steel.
a modern guitar will have knee levers (you will want these)and ten strings (or more). The vintage fenders often also require a little mechancial aptitude to get into condition if they havent been used in some time and when yo first get your guitar , you dont want to spend a week fixing it, you want to start learning how to play it.
Im sure others will elaborate and or have differing opinions, but I would suggest a modern guitar with three pedals and 4 knee levers for a first pedal steel. |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Hermitage, TN
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 10:19 am
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I played a fender 1000 for over two years before I tried anything else. It was a great learning experience. I discovered a lot of the E9 tuning through constantly changing the copedents of the A6 neck, in fact I had all 8 pedals going to one neck, and had one chromatic string on A6, making it more like reverse E9. Unlike most guitars, you can switch around pedals in a matter of minutes and without any extra materials.
Having said that, I also wouldn't recommend someone starting out on one of these. I remember four long nights of pulling the guitar apart and trying to get the changer back in just because I loosened a tuning screw too much. You have to be willing to go over the guitar every time you set it up, to make sure everything is tight and working properly. I like the way the cable system plays, but I don't think that it was ever perfected. Two problems that I saw where that you can't adjust the spring tension, and the tuning screw takes all the extra pressure from the pedal. The short scale length is no good too.
But then again, they're not too pricey, and if you're determined enough you can get one playing very well. |
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Nicholai Steindler
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 11:02 am
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Thanks everyone. very interesting. I suspected there were problems since they were so cheap.
I can't lie, the price is an attractive point. I see them going for 600-800$ a good bit. Is there anything under $1000 worth playing? |
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Nathan Sarver
From:
Washington State, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 11:41 am Re: How good are vintage Fender pedal steels?
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| Nicholai Steindler wrote: |
I can't remember if there are any 8 string 400's I think I've seen one.
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All 400's are 8 strings, as are the 1000's but with 2 necks. The 800 and 2000 models are 10 strings. If you're specifically looking for an 8 string pedal steel that is relatively inexpensive, a Fender is certainly your best bet. If you're looking to learn to play stuff like the guys you've heard in top 40 country radio since the late 60's, and you're on a budget, you'd likely be better off getting a Carter Starter, which is dependable, has a standard setup and knee levers.
However, I have a Fender 2000 which I'm very, very fond of. It sounds really sweet and looks possibly even sweeter. I personally kinda dig tinkering on stuff and it's a fairly rudimentary system. Also, there's a Fender Steel Guitar Forum with a number of people who are quite knowledgable about them.
It really just depends what you're after. If you're looking to buckle down and learn traditional pedal steel with traditional instruction methods and without worrying about maintenance, don't get a Fender. If you dig the vintage country steel from the early 60's like Ralph Mooney, Tom Brumley or Curly Chalker, don't mind tinkering, and are willing to do a lot of self-teaching, then by all means get a Fender. |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 11:50 am
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oops, i misread the intial post a bit.
Nathan above me is spot on. |
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Michael Lee Allen
From:
Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 12:02 pm
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Deleted.
_________________
"Wisdom does not always come with age. Many times age arrives alone."
Last edited by Michael Lee Allen on 26 Feb 2011 9:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 12:35 pm
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My first real pedal steel was a Fender 2000. I still have it. It plays smoother than anything else I've ever played, and it's held up very well. It has 4 knee levers, that I installed, since they were not offered when brand new. I can play new music, old music, and anything in-between. The copedent I use on the E9 neck is pure standard Emmons. In fact there is no mechanical limitations to the style of music one can play on the Fender,(Of course I, myself have limitations as a player). But there is the ability to change your copedent "at will" within minutes. The only draw backs are the weight. It is incredibly heavy. There is also the occasional cable breakage, and maintenance. But all-in-all it was worth it to me, without a doubt. If the Fender does not have knee levers on it when you buy it, you or a half way decent steel mechanic should be able to do the job easily enough. Some people don't want to put knee levers on the Fenders,if they are in good asthetic condition, because it could detract from the "antique value". My 2000 is an old war horse that has a lot of non- original parts on it, so it is ideal for hot rodding it with add ons.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 1:30 pm
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| See Sneaky Pete..... |
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Billy Tonnesen
From:
R.I.P., Buena Park, California
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 6:24 pm
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| It can depend on what style of Steel you want to play. Early Fender Pedal Steels were great for playing Classic Western Swing, Hawiian, and Classic Pop. The Fender Pedal Steels let you expand chords and phrases, get Diminishes and Augmenteds, etc. with all the Notes. They are not as good for E9th playing where the pedals are used to create the melody on their own with minimal bar movement. Speedy West was a good example of primarily being a non-pedal player who added pedals to enhance his own style and not change to the Nashville style. |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 6:39 pm
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Go here to find out more about Fenders. I love them.
_________________
Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Nicholai Steindler
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 6:41 pm
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This is a good discussion! Thanks everyone.
Um, don't kick me off the board, I have little interest in playing country. I have huge respect for it, but I can't think of the last time I actually listened to modern country. New riders of the purple sage, sure, bluegrass, sure. Old school country, sure.
Me, I'm going to play mostly rock, blues, jazz and traditional music. I feel limited on my lapsteel, so I bought a double 8 gibson console, and it's still not quite me yet. I need more chords. Slants are fine, but I like more than two or three notes available.
I'm going to adapt it to my playing. I think that nails it best. I'm not good. I just do my thing.  |
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Joe Gretz
From:
Washington, DC, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 6:42 pm Fender Steel
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Good points raised. I have a 1000, and I also wouldn't recommend it as a first instrument with the Western Swing caveat as an exception...jazz too.
Listen to Cindy Cashdollar on her Fender console steels and you might decide that you don't need pedals after all! 
I have an SD10 for E9, and use my Fender for "other stuff". I still haven't quit experimenting with copedents, but the back neck is FACEGACE and seldom do I touch a pedal on it.
Another thing about the Fenders is the pedal action is very different from the modern steels, not as much "expression" available...
I love mine, but it's kind of a "niche" instrument.
YMMV
Good luck!!!
Joe
"Edit"-In response to Fred Glave's post below, I suppose I should have said that the above is my opinion...I stated it as though it were fact.
YMMV
_________________
Dattebayo!!!
Last edited by Joe Gretz on 7 Feb 2010 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 6:52 pm
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If you like vintage instruments and have no interest in playing country then a Fender could be a good choice for you. Check out that Fender forum.
_________________
Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 6:58 pm Fender steels.
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Wish i could find a Fender 1000 in good shape from a dealer fo 6 or $8oo.Thats what i played over seas years ago Would still have it if an airliner had landed before unloaing it one time.Any how,thats what i put on the insurnce claim.
I would want it for the c6th use only.
I read on a thread some where about some one wanting info about filing the changers to make the pedals work easy.Yes it is easy to do.Curly Chalker filed his.He showed some one how to do it and the guy then showed me.Tracy |
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Nicholai Steindler
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 7:03 pm Re: Fender Steel
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| Joe Gretz wrote: |
Listen to Cindy Cashdollar on her Fender console steels and you might decide that you don't need pedals after all!
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I know exactly, what you are saying, there are people who can out play me on one string I'm sure!
It's hard to explain, the first time I tried an open 6 string tuning with a slide, I could play on it. It was natural to me, but I just keep bending behind the bar trying to get to chords I can't hit. It seems like I need a pedal!
Hmmm, you guys are convincing me I might like one, oddly. Probably an 800? On to the Fender board! |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 7:03 pm
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Tracy, that was me wanting to know. Any chance you could explain what he did?
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Nicholai Steindler
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 7:14 pm
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Could someone suggest more guitars in this price range more modern besides the Carter Starter, which I've seen a few people say was the worst thing they ever bought.
Silly question, but I guess you guys mean that on a modern guitar the scales line up better with the pedals? Or people hit the pedals to change notes? or both? Hmm so much reading to do.
(Edit: just realized Sneaky Pete was the FBB guitar player. He was amazing.) |
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 9:47 pm filing changer on the 1000.
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| Dave Zirbel wrote: |
| Tracy, that was me wanting to know. Any chance you could explain what he did? |
Hi Dave.Hope i can explain it as i don't remember what all the parts were called.Where the two plates that rub together where the string pulls and lowers behind the bridge take them out and file between them.That was where much of the drag was.File them a little more than just to keep them from rubbing together but enuff to give a little clearance in between amd do not oil as that only collects dust.I played a D10 MSA for over 30 years and never put a drop of oil on it anywhere either But i realize the old MSA's and Fenders were a horse of a different color.
Wish i knew how to ekplain it better but it is easy to take out and file in between each one.
Hopes this helps.Tracy |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2010 12:53 am
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I understand. It makes sense. Might be good to file the slots on the plate underneath as well.
Thanks Tracy!
Dave
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Larry Jamieson
From:
Walton, NY USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2010 5:25 am
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There are two nice, student model guitars on the Forum in the Instruments for Sale section right now, a Zum Stage One and a GFI. Either would be a good learning instrument that you could sit down and play without problems, they have knee levers, and the cost is $700 or $800.
If you prefer a vintage instrument, watch for older MSA or BMI guitars in good condition. These often sell for $1,000 or less, and are also good, trouble free instruments. Have fun!
Larry J. |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2010 8:47 am
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I have to respectfully disagree with Billy Tonneson and Joe Gretz's comment that the Fender pedals are not good for E9 and are somehow unable to produce the same feeling and movement as a modern steel.  I think there are plenty of examples of artists and recordings that would prove otherwise. The tunings, copedents, and basic operation of the Fender steel from the player's standpoint is identical to the modern steel guitar. The difference is in the mechanics. In other words the way the the changer is activated. This does not make the pedals do their job differently. The mechanics of the Fender require more maintenance, and the guitar is very heavy. When transporting the Fender,it may need more time to set up and re-tune. Other than that, it's just as much of a pedal steel, as any other pedal steel. I hope some other Fender players chime in here and provide more information. Also, go to the Fender forum. If price is the main consideration, there are student models out there that can give you what you want and need immediately at a similar, or less cost. They may also need less attention from you than a Fender.
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Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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Michael Lee Allen
From:
Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Posted 26 Jan 2010 12:56 pm
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Deleted.
_________________
"Wisdom does not always come with age. Many times age arrives alone."
Last edited by Michael Lee Allen on 26 Feb 2011 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2010 1:19 pm
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Installing knees on a Fender only requires some cable, wire for loops, and any lever mechanism. I've seen nice levers on Fenders, but I've also seen barn hinges, angle iron and a loop bracket. There is usually some nice looking levers sold on ebay very cheap. If you have the levers, the Fender with double raises/lowers is everything a modern steel is.
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Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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Michael Lee Allen
From:
Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Posted 26 Jan 2010 2:21 pm
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Deleted.
_________________
"Wisdom does not always come with age. Many times age arrives alone."
Last edited by Michael Lee Allen on 26 Feb 2011 10:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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