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Topic: String tension question |
Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 9:39 pm |
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| If I increase the diameter of any particular string but tune it to the same pitch (and assuming the brand is the same, and plains stay as plains and wounds as wounds, etc.), would the string tension increase, or decrease, or stay the same? I intuitively think the string tension would increase but I am not sure. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 9:45 pm
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| Increase |
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Ulric Utsi-Åhlin
From:
Sweden
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 10:58 pm
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| Tension & output volume increases.McUtsi |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 20 Jan 2010 7:41 am
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Do the experiment: Just tune your 10th E9 string to D or E and compare it to the 9th or 8th for tension.
As far as the wound vs unwound you need to know the diameter of the core on which the string is wound. The winding will increase the mass and, therefore, output volume, but the diameter of the core will determine the tension.
In addition, the diameter of an unwound string (or the core of a wound one) will determine the amount of physical movement needed to move a given musical increment. A fatter string will require less pull to change the note a whole tone (for example) than a skinnier one.
That's why a wound 6th string requires so much movement or throw compared to a plain 6th. It depends on the diameter of the core and a 020w has a very small diameter core.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
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Posted 20 Jan 2010 8:31 am
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| So maybe using a wound 6th would balance the pulls on an Emmons push pull, better than a plain 6th. The 3rd string needs way more pull than the 6th on my Emmons. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 20 Jan 2010 12:08 pm
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Half step changes work fine with a wound 6th but it's hard to get it to lower a whole tone on a push-pull using the original mechanism and parts. If you don't lower 6 to F# it's not an issue. You'll just have to try it. It's an easy thing to test. I raise and lower 6 a whole tone -- ain't gonna happen very easily on a push-pull with a wound string.
There may be some trick of leverage and gearing down to reduce the throw but I never wanted the wound 6th that badly. Richard is good at stuff like that ====
=== Sir Richard?
(hope this isn't highjacking the thread -- seems consistent with the point of the original post)
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 20 Jan 2010 12:50 pm
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I use a 22 wound on the sixth on my push-pull.
I can lower it a full tone with no problem.
Its raise travel is virtually the same as the third string, plus (IMO) it sounds better than a plain sixth  |
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Stephen Silver
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 20 Jan 2010 12:53 pm
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I've gone to a heavier top end the past two years and really like what it does to the sound of the thinner strings.
.13
.16
.12
.15
.18
The only string that I've broken is the 5th two or three times in that interval.
Jagwires on an Emmons LL III
_________________
Life is mostly Attitude and Timing |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 20 Jan 2010 9:28 pm
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Thanks for the responses: OK; I am considering increasing the string diameters on strings 3 thru 6 (all plains) on my E9 neck--Emmons push-pull--to 12, 15, 18, & 22. I am wanting to shorten the pedal throws, particular for the A & C pedals. Anyone have any experience with any of these values on a PP? How much would the increased string tension affect cabinet drop when the floor pedal are engaged?
PS: I am only lowering the 5th & 6th strings a half tone each, and I don't have any plans at the present to go down any further. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 20 Jan 2010 10:08 pm
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Larry,
I've got under my PP and tried it manually, and it will just achieve (with not much headroom) a full tone raise as well as a full tone lower on a .022 wound  |
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Reed Ohrbom
From:
Hemet, California, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2010 5:43 am
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| Larry Bell wrote: |
Do the experiment: Just tune your 10th E9 string to D or E and compare it to the 9th or 8th for tension.
As far as the wound vs unwound you need to know the diameter of the core on which the string is wound. The winding will increase the mass and, therefore, output volume, but the diameter of the core will determine the tension.
In addition, the diameter of an unwound string (or the core of a wound one) will determine the amount of physical movement needed to move a given musical increment. A fatter string will require less pull to change the note a whole tone (for example) than a skinnier one.
That's why a wound 6th string requires so much movement or throw compared to a plain 6th. It depends on the diameter of the core and a 020w has a very small diameter core. |
Larry; I've been a guitar player for many years, and through my own "thinking cap sessions", I've come to most all of the same conclusions you have stated so clearly.
But just recently, I realized I (and, if I'm correct in my re-evaluation) you, are possibly wrong on one of your stated principles. See what you think:
I'm referring to the statement that:
A fatter string will require less pull to change the note a whole tone (for example) than a skinnier one.
Assuming both strings are plain, (or, if wound, have corresponding smaller and larger cores), and are both tuned to the same pitch (very important part of my theory), then the fact is that the thinner string will require less travel to raise a whole tone, than will the thicker string.
How do I know? Note bending on a 6 string guitar, like a Tele, or Les Paul
If the high E string on a Tele is .010, say (regular light), compared to an .009, (extra light), you have to bend (push sideways) the .010 string significantly further across the fretboard to raise the tone a whole step. The .009, which is much "softer to the touch" (why we like em), requires less movement to get the same whole tone, (more why we like em), and therefore can be bent 1- 1/2 steps (or even further), without much effort (why we .....).
So, it seems that the tension that a string is under will have a definite effect on how much additonal tension is needed to be applied to raise it a given pitch.
All I offering is, that it's not quite as simple as just knowing that one string (or the core, if wound), is heavier/lighter than another, to figure out which one will require more pull to raise a given pitch. You have to take into account what tension a string is going to be at, when it's tuned to it's appointed pitch.
Does this make sense?? Fire away, and elucidate me further, if I'm not thinking correctly. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 21 Jan 2010 7:07 am
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Reed,
I can't explain the guitar analogy, but I can tell you that if you change to heavier gauges on E9 (e.g., 3rd from 010 or 011 to 012; 4th from 014 to 015; 5th from 017 to 018), you will have to adjust the nylon tuning nut for less pull than on the smaller diameter strings.
I have a dozen each of 017 and 018 strings and, sometimes inadvertently, use the 018 (5th string E9) to replace a 017. If I just tune the 018 to B and pull to C# it will be sharp. It also increases the tension because it takes more force to tune a larger string to the same pitch as a smaller one. On your Tele, that 009 is slightly slacker than the 010 when tuned to pitch.
I can't explain why a 009 bends further than a 010 with the same force on a guitar, while a 017 needs more throw to pull a whole tone than a 018 on a pedal steel. Perhaps someone can enlighten us.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Ulric Utsi-Åhlin
From:
Sweden
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Posted 21 Jan 2010 7:35 am
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The Pedal Steel Guitar changer finger moves the
fixed point of the string to a pre-set stop ; when
it stops the .018 string has,for reasons aforementioned,raised in pitch more than would a
.017 ; the changer finger´s priority is to shift
from point A to point B.McUtsi |
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Reed Ohrbom
From:
Hemet, California, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2010 2:13 pm One of Life's "Big Questions"
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As Alice said (I think it was her ??):
"Curiouser and curiouser".
Thanks Larry, for not taking any offense to my post. I'm new to the Forum, and I don't want to make any comments that would start a firestorm. Just wanted to put in my 2 "sense".
Reed |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 7:26 am
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McUtsi has the right idea.
Think about a stretched string attached at each end.
On a pedal steel the stretch is parallel to the axis of the string -- the most efficient direction of pull to tighten or slacken the string -- no wasted motion.
On a guitar you create a 'fulcrum' in the middle with your finger. When you stretch / bend the string the motion is PERPENDICULAR to the string itself. Remember vectors from high school physics. SOME of the perpendicular movement translates into a 'shortening / stretching' vector BUT much / most of the motion is 'sideways'.
That's the way I see it anyway. Interesting analogy.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Reed Ohrbom
From:
Hemet, California, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 3:38 pm
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AAAAhhhh: Those Vectors from High School; I'll always remember my first one !!! 
Good point Larry; Changes up the equation, so it's not exactly "apples to apples", more complicated than comparing what happens on a guitar to what happens on a PSG. Where's Richard Feynman when we need him??? |
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