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Topic: Busy fills behind the singer |
John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 11:43 am |
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I know the general rule is "keep still when the singer's lips are moving", and I agree with that. But I'm intrigued by the exceptions I hear every now and then. For example, listen to Merle Haggard's "Swinging Doors". Norm Hamlet is playing a lot of notes during the singing on that song. Maybe Merle can sing without moving his lips?  Seriously, though, it sounds great to me on that song. Now, I'm no Norm Hamlet and I'm not at all sure I could pull it off, but I do get tempted to try it.
Anyway, I'm interested in your opinions about that style of playing. Do any of you ever play that way, and when and why? Does it depend on the song, the singer, the general mood that night, or all of the above?
John |
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Ernest Cawby
From:
Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 12:02 pm hi
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I play with a small band no lead guitar. I fpllow Jeff Newman's teachings about playing chords behind the singer, when he is singing I hit a chord on the first beat and just let it ring till the end of his singing passage the play the fills, this helps make the band sound fuller is is the corret way to play, you are not playing anything moving to clash with the singer. Give it a try you may like it.
ernie |
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Billy Tonnesen
From:
R.I.P., Buena Park, California
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 1:10 pm
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Ernest:
I was going to post the same as you did. Keep the band full without overriding the singer or or other lead instrument. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 1:34 pm
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| Do any of you ever play that way, and when and why? Does it depend on the song, the singer, the general mood that night, or all of the above? |
I think it's real easy to step on a singer or soloist doing that kind of thing, but I also think it depends on all of those plus the song arrangement, what my guitar sounds like that night, what the rest of the band is doing, my mood, the singer's mood, the rest of the band's mood, the crowd and its mood, the phase of the moon and tides, the weather, and probably a bunch of other things besides.
How will you ever know what it sounds like till you try it yourself? Try recording some rehearsals or shows, try it a bunch of different ways a bunch of different times, and see what you think. When in doubt, you can always retreat to your stock pads. |
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Dave Harmonson
From:
Seattle, Wa
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Will Hart
From:
St. Croix, Virgin Islands
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 3:03 pm
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| Dick Overbey plays continuous tasteful back up behind Amber Digby. It's very complimentary to the vocal. Granted it's also very chordal in nature. |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 3:20 pm
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Thanks for the replies, guys.
Ernest, what you described is more or less what I do -- or at least what I try to do. As a beginner (less than a year) I don't have much of a "lick vocabulary" yet, but I'm pretty good at playing along quietly behind the vocal with sustained chords or with 6ths on strings 3 and 5 or 4 and 6. I try to spice it up a little more at the ends of the vocal lines, although what I'm able to play at this point is still pretty simple stuff.
Dave M., I've got a solid handle of the weather and tides here, and I guess the rest will come with time and practice. We have just started recording some of our rehearsals, and that's a good idea to use the recording to experiment and see what sounds good.
Dave H., thanks for the link to the Ernest Tubb video. I like it! It's not quite an example of what I was talking about, though. Even though the lead section is playing a lot of notes, they do an amazing job of confining the busy stuff to the ends of the vocal lines, starting on the last syllable the singer sings. The "Swinging Doors" recording is quite different, with the steel player noodling away on single-note lines throughout the vocals. Oh, and thanks for correcting me about the player on that recording. I just assumed it was Norm Hamlet, but I have no doubt you're right.
By the way, Dave H., you have a great reputation here on Lopez Island. I hope you'll come play up here sometime.
John |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 3:29 pm
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| Will Hart wrote: |
| Dick Overbey plays continuous tasteful back up behind Amber Digby. It's very complimentary to the vocal. Granted it's also very chordal in nature. |
I found a few videos of them on YouTube and yeah!
That's what I'm talking about.
John |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 4:10 pm
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| This reminds me of Leon Rhodes (I think I have the right name), a lead player who would play ripping busy jazzy fills underneath the vocals in western swing-type stuff. Always burning, but soft enough to not step on the vocals. |
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Dave Harmonson
From:
Seattle, Wa
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 5:54 pm
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John, I'd love to come and play up on Lopez again. I've played a couple of times at The Galley. I love the Island and the "vibe". Beatuful place with some great people. I try to remember to wave at each passing car.
_________________
www.facebook.com/countrydaveharmonson |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 6:35 pm
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| Allthis depends on who you are you going to follow..........Nashville rules or the rest of the world.. |
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Jeff Evans
From:
Cowtown and The Bill Cox Outfit
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 7:03 pm
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| This case may be exceptional, but what about Tom Brumley on "Together Again"? One Bach-immersed pianist described what Tom did there as a "countermelody." |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 8:21 pm
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It really just depends on whether you ever want to work again...
But seriously, it depends on the style of music. For western swing, subtle undercurrents of jazz lines beneath the vocal can be very, very effective. In other styles of music, it's probably best to steer clear.
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Ernest Cawby
From:
Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 10:12 pm hi
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I think we were thinking about pure country, if Jazz or blues or upbeat music that is another ball game.
Remember Tom got fired after that recording, but was hired back.
ernie |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2010 10:24 pm
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| Are you saying there is no upbeat "pure country" music? |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2010 2:34 pm
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Some songs seem to require a "Lay Off" approach with fills in-between the vocals....sort of "framing the vocals". This goes for any lead instrument. But other tunes sound great with a lot of riffing and doodling with the singer. I think when it's being done, it should be softer and in the backgound. John, How's the Sierra treating you?
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2010 3:32 pm
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| Fred Glave wrote: |
| Some songs seem to require a "Lay Off" approach with fills in-between the vocals....sort of "framing the vocals". This goes for any lead instrument. |
Yep -- I think that's probably true for most songs.
| Quote: |
| But other tunes sound great with a lot of riffing and doodling with the singer. |
"Swinging Doors" seems to be one of them. At least, I like it that way.
| Quote: |
| I think when it's being done, it should be softer and in the backgound. |
Agreed. On "Swinging Doors" it's quiet and unobtrusive. You have to listen for it or you might not even notice it.
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| John, How's the Sierra treating you? |
It's treating me great, and I'm having a lot of fun with it, Fred!
John |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2010 6:26 pm
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What I hear is the Bakersfield stuff is more "steel busy" than the Nashville stuff. Then again the Nashville stuff was busier in the old days. The rule that says don't play when the singer is singing is somewhat arbitrary. Most good players know what works and what doesn't. I think you can start up your phrase while the singer is coming out and keep it going as he comes back in if you're careful not to overwhelm him. It bothers me if I hear myself play a unison note with the sung melody. Also as has been pointed out, different musical styles call for different approaches. Listen!
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2010 8:49 pm
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It took me awhile to get this, but there's a difference between "lips are moving" and "singing". As far as I can tell, it's almost always OK to start a fill while the singer is still sustaining the last note of his/her phrase.
John |
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Will Hart
From:
St. Croix, Virgin Islands
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Posted 9 Jan 2010 4:36 am
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| Another example would be Jerry Douglas who can be very present behind a singer, but is so tasteful that it's complimentary to the voice. (John, get the Amber Digby CDs they are terrific and available on iTunes) |
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Glyndon Woosley
From:
LaGrange, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2010 9:32 am
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I think that it goes back to "stage manners 101". Sometimes "less is more". A "picking shoot-out" is most of the time a sign of a greenhorn.
_________________
Sierra Session D10, Rickenbacker, Fender, Session 400, Classic 30, Harke |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 9 Jan 2010 10:10 am
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I once saw some footage of Johnny Paycheck doing "The Only Hell My Mama Ever Raised" live.The steel player played as loud and fast as he could from beginning to end.While the soundman might be responsible for the mix,the player was responsible for the utter unsuitability of the shredding he was doing.He must have played blues harmonica before taking up steel.
My own thought is that lead instrument accompaniments to lead vocals should be treated just like harmony/background vocals-tailored to enhance the solo vocal. |
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Johan Jansen
From:
Europe
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Posted 9 Jan 2010 10:16 am
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How about singers shutting up when the steeler is at the ball? 
No kidding, it's a matter of taste, no written rules.
Maybe someday a steeler stands up and breaks all those rules, and finally something new will happen  |
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Glyndon Woosley
From:
LaGrange, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2010 10:27 am
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That's a good point Dave. The idea should be to "help", not try to "steal attention" away from the vocals.
_________________
Sierra Session D10, Rickenbacker, Fender, Session 400, Classic 30, Harke |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 9 Jan 2010 11:00 am
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| The distinction between 'helping' and 'stealing attention' are, at least in part, a matter of personal musical taste. De gustibus non disputandum. |
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