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Topic: Piano and B3 Hammond Synthesizer for Steel? |
Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 25 Dec 2009 3:51 pm |
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| Anyone know of a plausible way to emmulate a piano and a Hammond B3 Organ on steel? If this is already on another thread please point me to it. Thanks!! |
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Jeff Hyman
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 26 Dec 2009 1:19 am
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Nope  See other thread.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 26 Dec 2009 9:18 am
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I don't know any way to convincingly emulate piano without a genuine synth. If you could find one of the old IVL Steelrider pickups and sound modules, you could do it. Also strings, horns, etc. It's too bad they aren't made anymore.
There are several devices that will do a nice B3 sim. and a ton more rotating speaker simulators though. A search in the electronics or pedal steel section will probably give you a bunch of hits on organ sims. H & K Rotosphere, Boss RT20, all my Boss rack fx units have many adjustable parameters for building authentic organ sounds along with rotating speaker sims. Organ sim thread: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=161835&highlight=organ
The Roland GR synths have all these sounds, including piano, but have a pickup designed for 6 string guitars. I don't know if there is any way to use it for 10 string steel. No experience there.
Found an old thread about the IVL: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=120527&highlight=organ |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 26 Dec 2009 1:41 pm
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For the organ sound, there are 2 distinct elements you have to create to make a convincing B3 sound. First is the actual organ voice. Without the use of an AUDIO to MIDI converter (and using a synthesizer for the sound), you are not going to get a totally convincing sound. I see where guys on here are saying they are getting organ sounds from effects like the POG and HOG, but I haven't heard them and don't see how they can stack up to a synth with sampled sounds (I'll be glad to stack my Roland Vk8M organ module against your POG any day).
Next is the leslie rotating speaker sound. There are many effect units on the market for this. They all work fairly good, some better than others. But, without the real organ sound going into the effect, you are NOT going to have a B3 sound. I have a Boss Rt20 rotating speaker effect that I use on occasion to fake an organ type sound (notice I don't say organ sound). I don't have the luxury of playing on stages big enough to have my keyboards. So, I use this Boss effect on a couple of tunes to give the effect of an organ in the sound. But, it still sounds like a steel guitar played through a rotating speaker, not a real organ, and especially not a Hammond of any model.
The thing with effects like the rotating speaker effects, the dobro simulators, etc., is that they can fool someone (especially someone who wouldn't know the difference if a B3 fell on there head) if used very sparingly along with other instruments, and keep the volume under control.
What we need is a good polyphonic audio to MIDI converter like the old Steelrider and the newer Sonuus converter (although only monophonic) to play synthesizer sound modules. Although I have one of the Sonnus converters, and it works well (tracks fast) but the level of playing technique has to be right on or you will get false triggers. There was an old thread on the Sonuus unit where I spoke my feelings about it if you care to search for it (I don't have any luck with the forum search engine). At $99 it is a good TOY. I would have liked to see the engineers actually use their brains and come up with a polyphonic model in a Boss style sompbox. There is no way to switch between the audio output and the MIDI output on the unit, making it useless for live applications (unless you want to unplug it every time you want to switch from MIDI to AUDIO). There are also other issues like having to "dumb down" the input. Steel guitar pickups are too hot (according to Peterson tuners, who has some sort of interest in this unit) with an EQ to keep the unit from clipping. The footswith could have selected either MIDI or AUDIO output. There could have been a gain control and low pass filter to control the signal and calm down the high frequencies so they don't clip the unit. Well, so much for that.
That is what you need to get a good B3 sound (or any other sound). If you have the room, go to Best Buy, spend up to $500 on a home model synth and learn to play what you need to for the song. I have a $400 Yamaha I bought at Best Buy and it has sounds as good as my Korg Triton or Yamaha Motif (both expensive pro models) and actually a couple of better sounds.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Bill Moran
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2009 1:56 pm
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The Roland GR20 with the GK 3 pickup. Sounds great but the pickup was made for 6 string. I use it on the C6th neck. Strings 2 through 7. It doesn't like pedals and doesn't like the E9th tempered tuning.
Single string lines sound best. When I first installed it, on my Mullen, I had a sax part worked out that the band didn't know about until I played it in a live show. We do some twin things with the keyboard player now. Great unit but has it's limits.
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Bill |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 27 Dec 2009 9:48 am
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I actually gave some thought to mounting a Roland MIDI pickup and trying it. Does it not work well with more than one note at a time? Since it is for a 6 string, I would assume it should. The Sonuus unit will track a half step pitch bend without trying to trigger another note in between, unlike older units a friend used on a guitar (I think they were Roland units). They also tracked kind of slow.
Jerry,
I've heard of a few that have tried the Roland pickup on a steel, although never have seen it or heard the results. I would think that using a double stick tape to mount it under strings 3 through 8 would possibly work if the spacing was close. Or, as Bill mentioned, strings 2 through 7 on C6th.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 27 Dec 2009 12:58 pm
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Yeah Richard. I have a couple friends that regularly use the GR 30, 33 and VK Roland units on 6 string. We keep talking about trying one of their GK pups and synths on my steel but just haven't gotten around to it yet.
I fear that if it works, It'll be another cash outlay for me that I'm not really able to manage  ....so maybe it's best this way 
I have to say that the horns, pianos and strings sound really authentic with those units along with some intelligent thought process by the operator.
I have found the organ sims are reasonably doable on other gear, but I don't think a believable piano sound is plausible on anything other than a true synth. |
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Bill Moran
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2009 5:09 pm
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I haven't had my GR20 very long. I have found that it works best on C6th. For me anyway. I will, however , keep playing with it to see what it will do.
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Bill |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 28 Dec 2009 1:44 am
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Jerry, there is always that money issue. Damn the economy!! 
Fortunately, I already have the quality synths.
One thing to also consider is, the organ patches in synths typically use the mod wheel, or in the case of my Korg, a joystick to alter the sound of the leslie effect. If you use a pickup or converter and run into a sound module (with no keyboard), you have no way to activate or vary the leslie effect. This is a function that is programmed into a synth's mod wheel or joystick. Stand alone modules or rack units don't have a mod wheel or joystick, so you are limited to the default parameters that are programmed into the sound. And we all know, the beauty of a B3 and leslie is the ability to speed up and slow down the rotors at will. Without that ability, the B3 (or any other organ) sound is bland, boring, and frankly, pretty useless. Just my opinion of course. Of course we can always lock into the cheesey farfisa sound .
Note: As a keyboard player, I am very picky about any keyboard sounds.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 1:26 pm
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Thanks for all of your responses!! I'll get busy researching and experimenting. Best regards, Marty Broussard
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RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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