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Topic: Need help with jazz chords |
Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2009 6:12 pm |
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I have a session coming up. Can someone tell me the notes to build an A flat 13 sharp 11 chord, and an E flat 13 sharp 11 chord? Or maybe tell me the formula for figuring them out? I tried Google but no luck.
Thank you!
Dave
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 7 Dec 2009 6:49 pm
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One "formula" is from the category of "upper structure chords". Upper structure chords involve placing an unrelated major or minor triad overtop of the 3rd and 7th of your chord.... commonly used by pianists and guitarists.
In the case of #11, the most common is accomplished by placing the II chord major triad over the 3rd and 7th of your chord.
For example: (C6)
| Tab: |
Ab13#11
1-------
2-------
3--3(7--
4--3(7--
5--3----
6--3(6--
7-------
8--3----
9-------
10------
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You'll notice this is a Bb major triad placed over the 3rd and 7th of the Ab7 chord (C and Gb)
In this case the triad on top is in root position, but you can do as you wish (or can). Also, whether the 3rd or the 7th is on the bottom is irrelevant... whichever way you want. In this case the 3rd is on the bottom.
You could write a book about these chords, so I'll stop now.
- John |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2009 7:43 pm
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Dave. I am going to give you a fast way to get you through the session.
Lets talk in the key of C to make it easy.
When you see the C13#11 chord on your chart, don't worry so much about the 13. Go for the sound of the #11.
If you will play a Gb7+/C you will have the key notes of the C#11 chord and 99.99% of the time it will work for the composer/arranger when they hear it. Don't put the root of the Gb+ chord in the low end. Put it on top.
Don't even worry about playing the C in the bass. Let the bass player do that.
If you voice the chord from bottom to top E Bb D Gb and a low C in the bass you will have the sound you need to cover a #11 chord/sound.
To find the easy substitute for the #11 all you do is look at the root of the chord which is C and then think of the V of the key of C which is G and then flat that 1/2 step which is Gb and then make it a Gb7+.
One of the chords you asked about is an Eb13#11.
Think of Eb as the root/key. Bb is the V. 1/2 step down is A, so then think of A7+/Eb for your Eb#11 chord.
Another way to think of the #11 chord is too just play a 9 chord and flat the 5th of the chord. Again in the key of C, just play a C9 and flat the 5th which is G to Gb and you will have the same sound C E Bb D Gb. Always put the #11 in the upper part of the chord to make it speak better. If you put it low in the chord it will be a bit too muddy.
If the arranger/composer is a geek and demands to to have the 13 in the chord, you can always think of the 13 as the 6th up an octave.
Hope this helps. |
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Mike Delaney
From:
Fort Madison, IA
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Posted 7 Dec 2009 8:17 pm
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Here's a simple explanation (I hope!).
The chord in question comes from a Lydian Flat 7 scale. When vertical, as a chord, it looks like this:
A
F#
D
Bb
G
E
C
When horizontal, as a scale, it is:
C,D,E,F#,G,A,Bb
A way to think of it is as a DMaj triad over a C7 chord.
As for what the composer wants, you may not find that out until you get to the studio. You might want to be a bit early so you and the piano player can figure out how to stay out of each others way. Good luck. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2009 8:40 pm
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| Mike Delaney wrote: |
Here's a simple explanation (I hope!).
A way to think of it is as a DMaj triad over a C7 chord.
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Not simple. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 7 Dec 2009 8:54 pm
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Dave, take the Ab Major scale in 2 octaves:
Ab-- 1
Bb-- 2
C--- 3
Db-- 4
Eb-- 5
F--- 6
G--- 7
Ab-- 8
Bb-- 9
C--- 10
Db-- 11
Eb-- 12
F--- 13
G
Ab
An Ab13 chord is a dominant chord, so we know there is a b7 (Gb), so we build a tertian chord (stacked in 3rds)- 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13
Now, it's a #11, so we need to factor that in-
1 3 5 b7 9 #11 13
OK, now take a look above at the scale in 2 octaves. Find the corresponding notes with the degrees of our chord:
1= Ab, 3= C, 5=Eb, b7=Gb, 9=Bb, #11=D, 13=F
You don't need to play the whole chord. The notes (from low to high) Gb Bb D F over Ab bass sound nice. There is a nice major 7 interval between the Gb and the F on top. That is a real important component of the 13th chord. So does
D Gb C F (the equivalent of D7#9)--again that interval exists between those notes. Experiment.
Do the same thing in the key of Eb for your other chord.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links
Last edited by Mike Neer on 7 Dec 2009 9:01 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 7 Dec 2009 8:57 pm
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Well, it's not a simple chord, so...
If you want simple, then consider that the chord is a dominant one, play the 3rd and 7th of the chord (which is all you need to express a dominant chord), forget the root and all the extended components, and call it a day. 
- John |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 7 Dec 2009 9:10 pm
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Another thing to consider when playing over a 13#11 chord is that the notes of the melodic minor scale built from the 5th (Eb) of your tonic (Ab) is perfect. So Eb melodic minor (in this case we would call it the Ab Lydian Dominant) would be a great scale to work with. In the Ab Lydian Dominant, you can play around with Ab7 and Bb7, in other words you can move between the 2. Try moving up the neck with Ab to Bb, then to the next inversion of Ab to Bb and so on. Then you can work the Ab7 to Bb7 in. Wish I had time to demonstrate it for you.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2009 11:51 pm
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Counting out a 13#11 chord in C: C E G Bb D F# A
I see D major on top of a C7.
Transposing, Ab13#11 would be Bb major over Ab7
and Eb13#11 would be F major over Eb7.
Since all of the notes of a 13th chord work, I'd probably just play that and ignore the troublesome #11. On E9th, the C pedal gives you an E13th. Real easy.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2009 4:03 am
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| b0b wrote: |
Since all of the notes of a 13th chord work, I'd probably just play that and ignore the troublesome #11. On E9th, the C pedal gives you an E13th. Real easy. |
Yes but then you ignore the most important note in the chord that the arranger is looking for....the #11!!!
You would get a nasty look from the control room. People in there would be talking about you while the talk back mic button was off and you could not hear what they were saying. |
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Jeff Agnew
From:
Dallas, TX
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Posted 8 Dec 2009 4:54 am
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| Quote: |
| ...look at the root of the chord which is C and then think of the V of the key of C which is G and then flat that 1/2 step which is Gb and then make it a Gb7+. |
An elegant and eminently practical approach for the working musician who doesn't encounter these things daily.
I realize the theory is complex but sometimes one needs a handy thought process in their arsenal that can be pulled out and dusted off when needed to accomplish a specific goal like Dave's session. Beautiful. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2009 4:59 am
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If they hired a steel guitarist to play the chords, You'll want to play the chords, not just the "3rd & 7th" - there's a reason producers have called steel guitarists less and less over the last thirty years.
I always convert the higher numbers to something easier for me to think, by subtracting 7. So a 13 is a 6th chord, and a sharp 11 is a sharp 4 (or flat 5). I agree that the "money note" is the #11, but I'd want voicings with both that and the 6th on top. Learn the melody too.
| Quote: |
| Transposing, Ab13#11 would be Bb major over Ab7 |
- there's your "box", right there. |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 8 Dec 2009 5:09 am
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| Heres a free chord finder for those that really dont understand all the theory, but may find it easier to hear the chord. |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2009 6:49 am
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Thanks guys. I'll be using the simple explanations to get the job done but I also hope to learn something that will stick.
Someday I would like to really learn about music! 
_________________
Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2009 8:57 am
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If you're playing C6th, you know how P6 gives you a F9th chord, right? Well, if you add P7 to that, you get the F13#11.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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robert kramer
From:
Nashville TN
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Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2009 12:05 pm
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Winter is settling in early.  Don D. |
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Ga McDonnell
From:
N GA, USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2009 4:08 pm
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I don't agree with omitting the 13th. I think what they want here is a particular
sound that would come from the tones of the 13th and sharp 11. The flat 7th wouldn't be
critical.
Leaving out the root, a nice chord is CFBbD in Ab.
(Or EADF# in C)
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What you have there are some stacked 4ths with a major 3rd on top. A bonafide "So What" Miles Davis chord with a nice sound. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 8 Dec 2009 4:59 pm
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Leaving out the b7 defeats the purpose and function of the chord and it loses all of its tonality. The beauty of a 13th chord is the tension between the b7 and 13, always a major 7th interval.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Ga McDonnell
From:
N GA, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2009 5:58 am
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You're right about the distinct sound of a normal 13th. But sticking a sharp 11 in there would change that.
But you have a point, so replace the 9th with a 7th on the bottom. Then (trying not to get more
than a 4 note chord, you'd have GbCDF in Ab.
Assuming the tuning to be E9, that could be done with BC pedals and 6th string double lower on strings 6542 at 11th fret.
Or with Bb lever and second string double lowered on strings 9652 at fret 4. In both cases the high
note would be the 13th. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2009 8:38 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| Since all of the notes of a 13th chord work, I'd probably just play that and ignore the troublesome #11. On E9th, the C pedal gives you an E13th. Real easy. |
| Bill Hatcher wrote: |
Yes but then you ignore the most important note in the chord that the arranger is looking for....the #11!!!
You would get a nasty look from the control room. People in there would be talking about you while the talk back mic button was off and you could not hear what they were saying. |
You could release the C pedal as you engage to B to A# lever, and all of those nasty looks would turn into big grins.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 2:08 pm
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The session went well. Thanks to all for the help. I went with the "jazz for dummies" method and just played an Fmaj for the Eb13#11 and Bb for Ab13#11. Worked great. There were vocals over that part anyhow so I didn't need to get fancy and clutter things up. It was a smooth jazz version of the Stones "Dead Flowers". I cringed when I first heard it but it grew on me.
DZ
_________________
Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Dave Biller
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2009 9:13 am
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| I'm not surprised at all that you pulled it off, Dave. You are an awesome musician. Now, go ahead and replace all my lame parts on that Stone River Boys CD! I'd much rather hear what you would do with those songs. |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2009 9:58 am
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Biller sounds KILLER! No need to replace anyone's parts. I copied your signature licks/intros from the cd because they are perfect.
By the way Dave. What is the jazzy mystery chord you play at the end of Walking on My Dreams? If Gonzales hires me again I know he will ask me to play it. He tried to explain it to me last time and I couldn't do it!
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Dave Biller
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2009 10:50 am
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Dave you are gonna kill me when I tell you,
D13#11 (i actually would call it a b5)
the chord that started this whole thread!! 9th fret, pedals 6 and 7 just like b0b said.
and....you are WAY too kind sir. |
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