Message for guitar players......use your.........

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

volume control(s)!!! I've been working with a guitar player for a couple of years now who's just about to drive me nuts! The guy's a pretty dang good and tasty picker and singer as well but when he sets up, he turns his volume control(s) on his SG all the way up and then turns up the amp to whatever volume he'll need for the venue. When his turn to play fills comes, he'll play sometimes as loud as the volume he does a lead in. He says he can control it with pick attack! I think that's a big bunch of crap! When he's singing he's strumming open rhythm chords as loud as what a lead should be. What really is frustrating to me is when I'm doing my fills, I try to use some dynamics here and there. I try to cut it back and play quieter behind the singer but when I do, all I hear is his guitar so I in turn become louder than I should be. Have any of you ever experienced this before?.....

Just a hint for all you lead men, use some dynamics and back off of your volume when someone else is playing the fills. One good rule of thumb to remember on the bandstand when playing rhythm "If you can hear a rhythm guitar, it's too loud"....JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Joe Casey · From: Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)

Sometimes a lot of pickers are just heavy on ego listen to me players ..Not very professional.. Band dynamics are a team responsibility usually controled by the rhythm section and usually what the song itself demands ...The hardest thing for a semi pro to learn is what to play and what not to play.. When to play comes from developing the disciplin of those two..Volume comes froms listening.. It can be trying if the band is full of individualist rather than a team..Thats usually called jamming...I always had musicians that knew the difference between a Job and a party...Thats why they got paid well and worked steady...

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

"Dynamics? I'm playing as loud as I can!"

Roger Miller · From: Cedar Falls, Ia.

There is so many ways to approach this subject. When you want the harp player to stop playing during your solo, pull out your yellow lemon juice and take a hit. A team effort is what makes that effort gel, I hate drummers that play Las Vegas drums (crash,boom and bang) when the band is nice and quiet. I've often heard a good drummer is one that you don't know is there. Alot is to be said of this. Guitar players must have a leadership quality without separating themselves from the band.
Dynamics is a big word in the pro musician world. Be firm, tell him lets try and play like the pro's do. Good Luck.
Roger

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

plenty of them guitbox players have been losing their hearing over the years & are somewhat out of it when it comes to the overall volume level
so where's the comfort zone ?

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

Just shows to go ya, you can play in a band, have great equipment, get paid, and still not come close to being a true musician.

A lot of 'regular' bar musicians ought to listen to jazz players.

Not so much for their music, but for how they work together. Almost religiously, when a soloist is soloing, everybody else backs-off and even stops playing.

Cuz jazz folks know and understand dynamics and nuances. That's a far cry from your average bar band. (no disrespect Jerry)

I've got the same problems with all the "musicians" I play with.
Hardly any of them grasp what it really takes to make a group of people sound like something (a band).

Seems all they care about is getting "high", feeding their egos, and out-playing and out-shouting everyone else.

It's almost as boring as watching paint dry.

As you probably have surmised, we (me and them) don't play much anymore. A waste of time.

Oh yeah, and what's really gauling? No matter how many times you've sat them down and went over these issues - the very next get-together is exactly as things always were. Talk and reasoning and explaining are a thing of the past when it comes to this bunch. Oh Well

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Chip
Williams U-12 8X5; Keyless; Natural Blonde Laquer.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Jerry,Smack him in the head,You'd be surprised what that accomplish! Laughing

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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Billy Tonnesen · From: R.I.P., Buena Park, California

I worked with two great guys that played Lead Guitar that really mastered the Foot Volume Pedal. Years ago it was Bill Carson (who played with Billy Gray and Hank Thompson}, and in recent years up through 2006 it was Carl Walden playing lead and my playing Steel with the Sammy Masters band here in So. Calif.
Carl was also a premier Steel Player. We pretty much played the same dynamics as needed.

Stephen Gregory · Posted 6 Nov 2009 10:10 pm

Jerry you're giving him too much credit. "Good and Tasty" players know how to control volume dynamics. As far as that very important component of any musicians skill set goes, it sounds as if he is a rank amateur.

Steve Norman · From: Seattle Washington, USA

Also we are sitting, which gives us the full spectrum at ear level! A lot of guitar players have their amps hitting them in the calves versus the ears. Maybe asking him to put his amp higher if its not already?
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GFI D10, Fender Steel King, Hilton Vpedal,BoBro, National D dobro, Marrs RGS

Joe Casey · From: Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)

[quote]Jerry said: "If you can hear your rhythm guitar your playing too loud" ...Jerry....... Confused

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I noticed that the late Waylon Jennings was a pretty loud player on his leads but when he was singing or just playing rhythm, he'd just use his bare thumb. It seems that might work pretty good for a contrast. There's another guy in this area that does the same as the person I mentioned in the first posting. I just watched a video tape of a show we did in Carolina last month and all through the thing you hear those loud open chords on his guitar.

What do you do when these people are your friends and you don't want to offend them? Do you just grin and bear it? I never ran into this problem when I was playing professionnaly, it just seemed that everyone knew what they were supposed to do!....JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Joe Casey · From: Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)

Jerry if this guy is your friend do you think complaining about him on an open Forum is a show of friendship?.True you don't mention his name but I'm sure there are those on this Forum that know who you are talking about.. Sad

..Theres a guy on the Guitar Forum doing the same thing. Laughing

.He says the steel and the Keys are playing too loud?. Laughing

.I use to tell any of my band members who complained about others Volume to turn theirs down..When the guy can only hear himself he might realize how bad he is playing.. Laughing

Anyway I never kept anyone who only wanted to hear themself.. Wink

Geoff Barnes · From: Sydney, Australia

Get someone to tape your shows.
When he hears how his volume is swamping the mix he may get the message.
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Too much equipment....I think I need help.

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Recommend using a boost pedal for leads. This way at least he'll have two levels: loud and louder. I recommend you wear earplugs.
Laughing

Clete

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I agree on taping a show, and also to suggest that he angle his amp up at his own ear.

I think it is possible, to some extent, to control volume by picking technique, but that it isn't always enough. But if a player is just blaring at the same loud volume all the time, something should be said.

Of course, there are styles of music for which a fairly loud and aggressive rhythm guitar style is appropriate. I assume you're not talking about that type of stuff - some guitar players just don't have experience with this - if someone has been playing hard rock all their life, they may never have been in this situation before.

I have worked with some pretty good players who insist they can control everything with pick attack. Let's just say, "I disagree." They tended to run over my solos (on steel or guitar), which forced me to crank up on solos - and then bitched when I did. Very annoying, I agree. The problem is that it is sometimes not a musical issue, but a control issue. My opinion, anyway.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

To be fair (or overfair) you can control your dynamics by picking softer - but then, some don't. The lead player takes a good solo, the singer gets all emotey, and you consequently feel the inspiration oozing up from your toes, so you have to pound on that sucker so everybody'll know you're "feeling it" too... hell, sometimes I just keep turning down, there's no winning that kind of war. I get more precise the more I'm "feeling it", not less, but I'm weird that way.

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Or, if possible, make 2 recordings of the same show.
One from an audience mic, where he'll hear if his stage volume is too high, and another one off the board.
It'll be the one off the board that'll really get his attention, because he will be nowhere to be found in the board mix, again because his stage volume is too high. I've been through that before.
I find alot of guitarist who are used to being the only lead voice on the stage overplay, and play loudly. Some seem to think that the world would quit turning if they quit flogging their guitar for 2 seconds, or that the band just couldn't hold it together without them. Weird.
- John

Mike Taylor · From: Wetumpka, AL

Jerry..

Here's another thought. Have another musician friend -- preferably a guitar player who is a friend to both of you; come to one of the shows. During a break, gather all together and ask the friend who dropped by about how the mix sounds out front. Getting the 'you're a little loud' words from a respected friend of you both may be an easier way to deal with it.

Of course, you could use the tack used by a fellow back in Texas. He came up to us while we were playing and told my friend that 'his wife said to turn that s##t down'! My friend unplugged his amp, grapped it in one hand and walked with it and his guitar still strapped on out the back door. We didn't find out till the next day what was said. Needless to say, we didn't go back and play there again.

Just another thought...

mike

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

These kinds of issues can be delicate and difficult, for sure. It's hard not to come off as a Prima Donna when telling anyone else just how to play. But horrible to play in an environment where sensitivity to the song and each other is lacking.
It's pretty easy to just suggest replacing non-emotive players or joining another band... but if there aren't any other players or bands around...

I feel so very fortunate to have been able to play with so many sensitive, creative, emotive listening players.
But then, I have a gig coming up with a smoking, tasteful, hot guitar player... who insists on playing every single fill and 9/10 of the solos. I'll just never understand how one can get to a professional level of expertise and still be in third grade when it comes to musicality.

Joe Casey · From: Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)

Jerry wrote on a prior thread, something that has me confused

James Cann · From: Phoenix, AZ

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

b0b, please close this one, it's gotten off track as the crazies have joined in the fun. It seems a person can't even vent a little frustration without the "holier than thou's" coming on.

Joe, how far back did you go to come up with that old quote and what purpose did it serve except to show you what a trouble maker you are! Thanks for nothing. For some unknown reason I thought you were a "Brother of the Craft" which was a bad assumption on my part as obviously you aren't!

Thanks to those who contributed some meaningful input and not an attempt to slight the author of this thread........JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Charles Curtis · Posted 14 Nov 2009 10:16 am

One comment here Jerry. Once, in Rockville, I went to listed to one of the greatest psg musicians in this area play; I won't mention any names but his initials are Gary Gimble, and they were drowning him out. It was so frustrating. I would have left sooner but a gal starting bending my ear...oh well.

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