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Topic: "Looking" For Tone In The Wrong Places? |
Reece Anderson
From:
Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 7:20 am |
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Over the years, steel guitar sound/tone comparisons have provided the probable conclusion that it’s unlikely anyone can consistently identify an inherent tone or specific guitars when they can’t see them being played. If this is indeed true (and I believe it is) the question then becomes……what is it that causes our senses to arrive at false conclusions?
Other experiments I’ve seen over past decades further concluded it was not probable that anyone blindfolded and touching only the strings when playing, could consistently identify an inherent tone or a specific guitar.
When considering the basic human senses and the sound/tone comparisons made in the past, the only logical sense left to consider is…… the ”eyes”. It is my contention that the eyes are the most dominating sense with which to both search for and identify the guitar and tone that satisfies each individual. If the design and cosmetics of a guitar conforms to a persons natural tendencies of acceptance, chances are they will find the tone they have been looking for in that specific guitar.
To defy (perhaps unknowingly) our natural tendencies because of the influence of others opinions (although many times well intended, and in some instances somewhat helpful) is to defy that which adheres to our individual perception and has the potential to lead to personal disappointment and dissatisfaction of both the instrument and…….”the tone”.
The eyes provide information that continually updates a persons perception, and when a perception is formed and considered carefully, it will ultimately provide the opportunity to make an informed and intelligent decision concerning the guitar that is best for each individual, which will in turn provide the greatest opportunity to achieve……. “the tone”. |
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c c johnson
From:
killeen,tx usa * R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 10:38 am
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| Thanks Reece for an interesting and informative post. The grandson is having fun with th Music Tx Style lessons on lap and is looking forward to the next set of lessons. I have told him he will be great by the time he is 21 as he is being taught the right way. Take care cc |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 11:14 am
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I can consistently identify the "inherent tone" of original vintage Fender, Sho-Bud and Emmons guitars, when compared to each other. Modern guitars of various brands use similar construction techniques and often have identical pickups, making it much harder to tell them apart by tone alone.
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 11:37 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| I can consistently identify the "inherent tone" of original vintage Fender, Sho-Bud and Emmons guitars, when compared to each other. Modern guitars of various brands use similar construction techniques and often have identical pickups, making it much harder to tell them apart by tone alone. |
Right on.
Reece - when many present manufacturers use Mark Giles' bodies, Lawrence, George L or Truetone pickups and similar all pull changers, it is very unlikely that they will have signature sounds or tone whichever way you want to call it. The Fender pedal steels of the 60's have extremely identifyable tone, as do push pull guitars. There is a variation in the tone of some ShoBud models, but overall I believe that Bobby Lee is right.
Some Sierra's have very distinctive tone that sound almost like 2 pickups out of phase.
I have 3 pedal steel guitars, and when plugged straight into an amp each one sounds markedly different to my ears especially in the higher registers. The sound cannot be equalised for all 3 purely by altering the controls on my amp.
When it comes to modern pedal steels, I would agree with your sentiments completely.
Ken
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E,
Last edited by Ken Byng on 23 Aug 2009 11:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Reece Anderson
From:
Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 11:42 am
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| b0b.....you are of course right, but I believe it made it clear in my earlier posts that guitars like Fender, Multi-cord, Gibson Electro-Harps and etc. were not part of our evaluations. Those guitars have most certainly secured their rightful place in steel guitar history, but they are from a different generation than the mainstream guitars of today. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 11:53 am
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I agree that most modern pedal steels sound about the same. I am somewhat biased however because I've been playing an Emmons p/p for nearly 40 years. It seems to me that steel guitar tones have gone from thin to thick to thicker throughout the 50s, 60s, 70, 80, 90s...etc. Like b0b, I can recognize certain vintage tones... Fender, Emmons, etc, but today's PSGs all sound the same to me, and in my humble opinion something has been lost in the name of "progress".
_________________
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25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 12:10 pm
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In the recent listening test posted on the Forum by Darvin Willhoite, I was one of six people (out of 17 who tried) who correctly identified the Emmons push/pull. I did not attempt to identify any of the other three guitars, all MSA's of different models, because I am not familiar with any of those models. To quote myself,
| Quote: |
| If one is going to recognize and identify a given sound, it's by mental comparison with one's previous experience of known examples. |
Could I consistently pick out a push/pull in similar tests? I have no idea. I would be interested to find out, and I have no psychological investment in whether I would or wouldn't. I'm fine either way.
But I thought it might bear on this topic to discuss how I arrived at my choice on this occasion. In thinking about it, I think a particular experience entered into how I arrived at my answer. I happen to have listened over and over to an album in which two steel players (Bobbe Seymour and Jimmy Day) alternated in no fixed pattern playing guitars which I knew factually were an Emmons push/pull and a Mullen. I listened for tone in this album with great attention because I was in the process of acquiring a Mullen just like Jimmy Day's, and, having to await delivery while the guitar was reconfigured for me, I was eager to acquaint myself with the tone characteristics of the guitar so similar to mine. Not having any strong preconceptions about either guitar, I found that, with the help of liner notes that stated who played where throughout, and also aided by recognition of their different playing styles, which I could then associate with the tones of the instruments, after a while I could usually tell when one or the other guitar entered even when listening in the car, without the notes, and even when no signature stylistic detail in the playing was immediately apparent. This meant that, as a side effect of identifying the Mullen, I also was learning to recognize the subtle aspects of the push/pull's sound that were different.
That's the experience I brought to Darvin's test, and that's why I "guessed" only the push/pull. I can't at all verbalize what sonic subtleties I felt I recognized. Was I completely certain? No. Was I pretty confident? Yes. I did, in fact, get it right. Do I feel it's a sure thing I could get it right consistently? No. As I said above, I'd be (mildly) interested to know that myself.
At any rate, the sonic differences among the guitars in Darvin's test, and among pedal steel guitars of the last 30 or so years generally, are subtle enough to be not highly significant. I'm pretty sure I could get a sound I'd be happy with, and indeed get effectively almost the same sound, out of any of those four guitars with a little tweaking. |
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 12:22 pm Tone ?
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It is intresting to say the least.Years before the internet i had a Fender 1000.Got back from an overseas tour and the airline wrecked it.Bought a used steel of some kind when i got back to the states.Then ordered a D10 ZB.Later i traded that in for a D10 MSA as it had the triple raise,ect.Used it on and off the road for 30 years.Retired and sold it i am sorry to say.I have had three different brands of the late modle steels and sold them all as they were single neck.Oh yeah,at one time while i was having the ZB changed to pulling rods i was loaned a PP Emmons.Was never so gald to get rid of a steel and get the ZB back due to the mechanics.I have a pertty good ear and they all sounded good to me.First thing i looked at before buying a steel was under the hood.
I have to agree with Reece on believing it is mostly the eyes and what some well know steel player uses.
To me and i repeat,it was always what was under the hood.I have an old MSA coming i will play for fun and got it as it is a double neck.I missed the C6th. Price and knowing what is under the hood had every thing to do with me getting this MSA.My opinions only.
howard |
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Reece Anderson
From:
Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 2:57 pm
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Ken B.....Sorry it may appear I neglected your post, yours went on while I was responding to b0b.
The guitars you refer too have been used in many comparison evaluations, yet not one person to my knowledge has ever been successful at consistently identifying any brand of guitar. I know you are being honest when you say you can hear an inherent tone, but I also respectfully suggest things are a lot different when someone is "under the hood" making the comparisons.
I also respect your comment that you can hear a difference in your three guitars which you truly believe cannot be equalized to have a like tone. I again respectfully suggest that the reason could be because you can "see" the guitars you're playing.
I believe all mainstream manufactures over the past many years have achieved an acceptable tone, yet none have a consistent inherent tone relative to the brand name.
When we first started the evaluations at MSA, Mark Giles was not building cabinets for many companies and Geo L. was not making pickups, so the similarities of guitars were even further apart then than they are now, and if an inherent tone could not be heard then, it's even more doubtful it could be heard now.
Next time you're in Dallas, if you like, possibly we can set up an evaluation for you. Lastly I want you to know I do not doubt your sincerity and I always respect and value you and your comments, most importnatly, I consider you a dear friend. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 3:32 pm
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| Thinking about my previous post, I also acknowledge that the fact that I was told in advance that one of the four guitars was a push/pull was an influence on my perception. If the question posed by the test had been simply "Four different guitars were played. Can you identify them by brand and/or model?", I'm sure the likelihood of my pegging one as a push/pull would have been reduced. |
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Danny Bates
From:
Fresno, CA. USA
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 3:47 pm
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Tracy Sheehan said:
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| i had a Fender 1000.Got back from an overseas tour and the airline wrecked it. |
Tracy, sorry to hear about your guitar.
I never thought a Fender steel guitar could get destroyed unless it was run over it with a steamroller.
I also have been on overseas tours and I remember what happened to our equipment, so on second thought, I don't think a steam roller could hurt it as much as an airline could!  |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 5:44 pm
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| I thorougly agree with Bobby Lee. Most modern guitars use the same construction and sound the same. Thats why I play ZB's. |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 6:01 pm
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Does this also apply to the 6 and 8 string Lone Star models? Or are we only talking mainstream 10 string models?
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Amor vincit omnia |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 6:22 pm
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Why don't we ask a blind player if guitars sound different ?
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Bob |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 6:24 pm
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| Edward Meisse wrote: |
| Does this also apply to the 6 and 8 string Lone Star models? Or are we only talking mainstream 10 string models? |
Lone Star 6 and 8 string pedal steels don't use the popular pickups. They also have an unusual, radical design in which the key head is attached to the end of the body instead of being on the top deck. I wouldn't expect it to sound like today's more "standardized" instruments.
Give it a listen. What do you think?
http://www.lonestarsteelguitar.com/images/MaybeToday.mp3
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Last edited by b0b on 23 Aug 2009 6:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Reece Anderson
From:
Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Aug 2009 6:25 pm
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Brint H.....I have enjoyed reading your honest, open minded, and insightful posts. Like yourself, it matters not to me if someone can do it, I'm fine either way and I certainly have no dog in the hunt. All I'm doing is sharing my experiences.
Kevin H.....I have seen quite a few ZB's being used in comparison evaluations as well, and the results were the same as with other guitars.
Doug B.....Very interesting point. Possibly as you said,..... something has been lost in the name of progress, but at the same time I also believe that IF there was a guitar that didn't sound like that which the players expect today, that company would not be in business very long. I believe we can all agree that progress is a reality which waits for no one and it's going to continue whether we like it or not. |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 24 Aug 2009 5:25 am
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Good Info Reece,
However I believe that there are some tonal differences in the guitars even being built today. When I was shopping for a guitar last year, I was able to test drive several at home and record each of them onto a track that I was very familiar with. The results of the test were interesting. When each guitar is soloed the tonal differences can be heard; when dropped into the track not so much. Also, these differences are not major, but very subtle and perhaps not even audible without high end monitors.
I do agree with Reece about the eyes being the most dominant sense we have. That actually could be one of the problems with Country music today. Years ago I was in Nashville working at a small studio. We got lots of demo tapes etc of people wanting to get involved in the business. My boss was very smart and he would cull through the week's tapes and ask the other engineer and myself to listen to them. We were not allowed to look at any photos; we had to judge what we liked strictly on what we heard.
Susan Boyle from England's got Talent is a prime example of how powerful the eyes are.
Regards,
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Mark T
Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12 |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2009 6:26 am
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My pedal steel sounds different to me almost every time I sit down to it. It's me, not the guitar. Sometimes I love the tone. Sometimes I hate it! Nothing changes but me.
People are fickle creatures!
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2009 6:38 am
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Well - this must be the 50th thread on the same old, tired subject started by the same prson.
Why not just do a search and read all the OLD posts? It's just repeated information.
That being said - IF the premise that"Brand Z modern guitars" don't have a distinctive tone that sets them apart from other any other "modern guitars" that's really unfortunate. Real luthiers are usually on a lifelong quest to create "tonal identity" for their instruments - not just a "brand" sound, but a "model" sound.
If steel is an exception to that ideal, it seems (to me) to infer that manufacturers are mainly interested in mechanics, and "good" tone (rather than distinctive and really rich, full and identifiable tone) is "good enough".
I'm a musician. I chose my "tools" very carefully, and work long hours making instrument, effect and amp adjustments to try to reach certain goals soundwise. "Good enough" just isn't "good enough" for me.
The "steel guitar tone" as a singular sound most builders are happy to get (that's a VERY short and rough summary of past discussions on the subject, so no flame wars about it, please - I KNOW it's not complete) runs against the grain of literally every other musical instrument.
Buescher and Conn horns have different sounds.
Peavey PXD's and Ibanez SV's have different sounds.
D-28's and the Santa Cruz RS have different sounds.
Yamaha and Steinway pianos have different sounds.
Precision and Jazz basses have different sounds.
Nashville-made Dobros and Scheerhorns have different sounds.
Hohner Special 20's and Lee Oskars have different sounds.
The list could go on for pages, and all of the listed ones above are "modern" instruments.
IMO the pedal steel industry is in a sad state of affairs if what Reece says is true. And *if* true, I'd hope mentioning it is voiced as a complaint and not complimented as a "feature".
I'm sure someone will (or will be tempted to) reply with the ever-irrelevant "stop bringing up comparisons to 6-string guitars - they're totally different!". So I'll address that in a simple statement: no, they are not. And neither are any other instruments.
Further, I'd love for a manufacturer to jump in to one of these threads and talk about *tone*, and how they strive for individuality and a "signature" sound as =do other luthiers.
But maybe, unlike the guys who made the vintage steels that CAN be identified by sound as Reece mentions, modern steel makers are just mechanics, and using the terms "luthier" or "musical instrument manufacturer" are a mistake.
I can think of one maker that specifically builds modern instruments with the goal of nailing a particular tonal signature - Kevin Hatton/ZB Custom. Maybe he's the only one. If he is, God bless him - he understands "musical instruments".
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 24 Aug 2009 6:49 am
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Jim,
You raise some good points but one thing I noticed is that all of the examples you stated are acoustic instruments.
We know that Strats and Tele's sound different, but I would be interested in trying to find out how certain wood and or metals influence the sound of an instrument which is primarily electric.
Not trying to be confrontational just trying to understand. You used Kevin as an example. Can you explain in more detail what Kevin does that maybe some of the other guys do not.
Again just curious.
Regards,
M
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Mark T
Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12 |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2009 7:18 am
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| jim Sliff wrote: |
| Real luthiers are usually on a lifelong quest to create "tonal identity" for their instruments - not just a "brand" sound, but a "model" sound. |
I've never heard steel guitar builders referred to as "luthiers" before. I suppose if electric guitar builders can be called luthiers, steel guitar builders can too. Still, to me a luthier is a guy who bends and shapes wood to make it sing. Steel guitar builders don't do that, not really.
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Reece Anderson
From:
Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 24 Aug 2009 7:30 am
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Mark T.....Your past experience as a recording engineer and as an exceptional player certainly adds credibility to your evaluation, and in addition I know you as a friend and even a golfing partner. (and a very good one I might add)
We agree the eyes are the most dominant sense, and with that in mind is it not possible that since you had previously "seen" all the guitars you played, that when you played them back, your perception could have been at the very least partially preconceived?
Jim S.....:  |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 24 Aug 2009 7:57 am
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Reece,
In my case of comparing sound you may be correct although I have trusted my ears all these years and they seldom let me down.
However, after all the recordings were made, Gary P. came over and blind tested the tracks. He had no idea of which guitar was played on which track. The point is that there was a difference. Slight but a difference. And we were not trying to guess the type, it was more tonal than who manufactured it.
Regards,
M
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Mark T
Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12 |
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Reece Anderson
From:
Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 24 Aug 2009 11:34 am
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Mark…..During your evaluation did you first decide on a guitar, then adjust the EQ of the other guitars so as to sound closest to the guitar you first picked…….before making comparisons?
When considering your experience I can appreciate why you would trust your ears, and I also agree with your statement……“the eyes are the dominating sense”.
Fortunately we don’t live that far apart, so give me a call at your convenience and let’s get some friends together with different guitars, either here or there. |
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Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 24 Aug 2009 12:29 pm
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I'm with Jim on this. I love the sound of Fender 1000s/400s but I also love the weight and action on my GFI. If only it were possible to have a GFI sound like an old Fender 
As for the comment of whether the wood and metals make a difference in the sound of a solid body electric 6-string, the answer is an emphatic yes! It all has a cumulative effect.
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Primitive Utility Steel |
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