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Topic: Incredibly long sustain... Goodrich gear questions.. |
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 3:10 pm |
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I got a few gigs locally with an old style C&W band playing steel.. By the time the 2nd practice came around, the guitarist quit, and I was basically forced to play guitar and sing as decent guitarists are not that easy to find around here for older country stuff.
We took on another player for steel, who is a good player and a nice guy I have done several gigs with..
Anyway at rehearsal last night, this guy had sustain unlike anything I had ever seen or heard.. I mean Hammond organ sustain.. He would put his bar on the fret, and proceed to play what seem like 20 second long phrases with a one hit string grip, that just stayed and got louder actually as he moved pedal and levers. He has an old Bud S-12 w a GeorgeL pickup into a Profex and a Peavey Nashville 400.. Nothing fancy really.
He has always had sustain like this and I am always puzzled by it. His notes hang 3-4 times longer than anything I can muster.. Just forever.. Its seems to be effortless..
He attributes his unreal sustain to these 2 items..
His Goodrich 7A Supersustain Matchbox, and he also uses some sort of Goodrich volume pedal with a battery, so I imagine it has some sort of pre amp... I mean I will gladly part with some bread if I can get that kind of incredible long clean sustain... I use a small 1/2 rack compressor and it helps, but sounds "squashed" when pushed..
Anyone using these Goodrich items? and would you ever consider playing without them??.. I have a hard time believing a little Matchbox, and preamp pedal could do what he says it does, but I know what my ears tell me.. He said he struggled for years to get sustain and now has all he can ever use.. It would make me a much better, less "choppy" player to have that kind of sustain.. Compressors don't do it for me...any comment on the gear my friend was using? bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......
Last edited by Bob Carlucci on 22 Oct 2009 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 3:15 pm
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Hi Bob
Can't comment on that gear, but I wondered if you had sat down and played his rig...Jerry |
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Cartwright Thompson
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 3:27 pm
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Sounds like the guy had a little piece of gear that is difficult to buy..... it's called technique.
Seriously, his rig doesn't contain any magic bomb. The Goodrich stuff is excellent, I used a 7A for years but it is really just an extra tone control. The 120 is a great volume pedal but no better than a Hilton or any other quality volume control.
He said that he struggled for years- there you go. There's no shortcut to great tone/sustain, just practise and get better. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 4:55 pm
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No, sorry... I know when sustain is from technique. I have been playing 33 years. A guitar setup that rings forever when tuning an open string or swatting an open chord to check tuning has nothing to do with technique. I don't want to be argumentative, but if this 7A and preamp pedal don't contribute, WHY bother with them?.. He hasn't had this stuff forever, but once he got it, he went and bought backups, so he wouldn't have to go without... anyone with some experiential insight into these particular Goodrich devices? bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 5:51 pm
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I use a Goodrich 7A religiously, and have gigged extensively with it. I do believe the sustain (of which I do get in spades) comes from the gain control, which does not distort the signal as much as bring up the gain to where it can provide the picked note(s) with a place to "hang", due to the signal being on the threshold of feedback from the amp. At least that's the way I use it. There is no big increase in volume as such, so it doesn't effect your level too much. I'm not a real techie, so that's the best way I can describe it. The other knob is for tone, with an increase in treble as you turn it up. It's a great unit, and mine is all that more special because it used to belong to John Hughey. 
I just use a passive Goodrich L120 volume pedal with it. The Goodrich 10K (which I'm sure is the one your friend has) basically is supposed to do the same thing as the 7A, without any controls. I used to have one, but I never tried both the pedal and matchbox together. Maybe together they create even more of a sustain effect? I can't really say.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 6:03 pm
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Thanks Chris... I saw some videos of the Matchbox 7A SS on youtube.. The guy was strumming open chords on a lap steel, and bringing the effect in and out.. It was jaw dropping how the unit affected those open chords.. it sounds almost like a maxed compressor without the "squashing" effect with a clean boost thrown in for good measure.. Really intriguing... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 7:05 pm
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| I found a BOSS LMB-3 Bass Limiter/Enhancer to provide the right "hang" for sustained notes with no attack-squashing effect. The BOSS is probably not quite as low noise as some other units/combinations, but it works wonders both with and without amp-feedback. Makes the steel "bloom". |
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Bryan Daste
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 7:57 pm
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| What is the Goodrich 7A doing? Is it just a gain/tone control, or is it somehow compressing or otherwise bringing out the sustain? |
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Brian Pelky
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 10:32 pm
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Does the 7A do the same thing that a Black Box does?
_________________
Sho-Bud Super Pro D10,Tele,Strat,Martin D-28,Korg Triton Pro,Nashville 400 |
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Mitch Druckman
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2009 9:26 am
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I don't know if the Black Box and Matchbox are the same or not, but both are impedance matching devices. The Black Box is a unity gain device and the Matchbox can add up to 15db of clean gain.
Bob, have you found out if the Matchbox and 10K pedal are the missing link? Inquiring minds still want to know. |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 26 Oct 2009 2:26 am
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Ive got an older Goodrich 6A Super Sustain Matchbox which, besides a grey cover instead of the 7A black cover, looks essentially the same. Im not sure what changes were added to the 7A.
I used it for recording with nice results on steel and guitar. Im partial to AC adaptors for live performance, but the 6A takes two 9v batteries only. I dont use it live. I got a Hilton VP that has excellent gain and an AC adaptor which works great.
Has anyone modded a Goodrich Matchbox for AC power? I recently did this on my MXR Distortion+ so I could use it on my pedalboard. How long do two 9v batteries typically last in the 6A?
Clete |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2009 4:46 am
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If he's running a Matchbox into a powered pedal, he's got two stages of (clean) gain piled into one another, with control of final volume. Lowell George of Little Feat used to use two MXR Dynacomps together in series - talk about squashed! - but then into a volume pedal. You never hear squash, because the VP shapes the envelope.
If you have some stompboxes that can handle your steel guitar pickup's output and can be adjusted to put out a clean boost, like a graphic EQ set flat; or a compressor set to not compress, just boost, you could experiment with putting two in series in front of the volume pedal. It might not be "natural" but that's nonsense to me... what sounds good to you? |
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Tim Wilson
From:
California, USA
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Billy McCombs
From:
Bakersfield California, USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2009 4:41 pm
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I have a goodrich super sustain match box thats a model 4A, Is this one of the first to be made, and whats the diffrence from say a 7A?
_________________
78 Emmons PP,Great tone.82 Emmons SKH #56 |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 27 Oct 2009 10:04 pm
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| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
...He attributes his unreal sustain to these 2 items..
His Goodrich 7A Supersustain Matchbox, and he also uses some sort of Goodrich volume pedal with a battery... I have a hard time believing a little Matchbox, and preamp pedal could do what he says it does, but I know what my ears tell me.. He said he struggled for years to get sustain and now has all he can ever use.. bob |
This is a guy who has probably played just as well for years, and since enhancing his equipment via Goodrich has achieved a better sound for himself.
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
Bob, did you see Jeff Lampert's post on sustain in Pedal Steel? http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/013420.html
Perhaps it's acoustic feedback between the amp and the guitar body/pickup. I wrote a long post last night on my experiences with that. As I said there, I got this Zum a while back, and one night we were just a bit louder than normal, and I noticed this very controllable feedback, even though my amp was 6-8 feet in back of me. My first reaction was - "This isn't right, pedal steel isn't supposed to feed back, and what will I do if I ever want to really get loud.", but then I found it very useful at times. The issue, to me, is whether or not it sounds good and is controllable. It isn't very useful if there's a real sharp resonance point and only a small band of frequencies feeds back. But on this guitar, a wide and useful band of frequencies can be driven into feedback, controlled by the volume pedal.
I use a bit of compression to help stabilize the open-loop gain to make the feedback a bit more controllable. As you know, I use a pot pedal. I've used feedback on guitar for a long time - it's the combination of physical and acoustic properties of the guitar plus the pickup that determine the ultimate sound, I believe. I expect that particular Truetone has a lot to do with it. Might be worth experimenting.
Of course, that may not be what's going on here. Pretty hard to speculate accurately. |
| Billy McCombs wrote: |
| I have a goodrich super sustain match box thats a model 4A, Is this one of the first to be made, and whats the diffrence from say a 7A? |
My 6A is maybe unique in the fact that the bottom panel is actually from a Model 2B. The address is different for one thing. The 2B address reads 5148 N. Tamiami Trail. The 6A address reads 813 2nd Ave, phone 813-645-5791. Both in Ruskin Fla. 33570
Anyways, 2B comes before 4A. I imagine someone has the model 1A 
Maybe its not unique, but it sure is a cool sounding Matchbox!
Clete
p.s. I noticed a sticker by the output jack which clearly states: Insert Plug Fully To Connect Battery |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 28 Oct 2009 6:06 am
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I could be wrong, but I thought the Goodrich H10K/L10K pedals only buffered the signal (impedance matching), and didn't add any gain?
I sure can't tell any noticeable gain difference through my L10K vs a pot pedal.
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 28 Oct 2009 6:33 am
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Goodrich makes a pot pedal with the matchbox built into it. There is an on/off switch for the matchbox portion.
The only difference between the 6A and the 7A is that the 7A has an on/off switch. On the 6A, you have to pull out the output jack to turn it off. |
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Lynn Oliver
From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 28 Oct 2009 9:05 am
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| Bill Terry wrote: |
I could be wrong, but I thought the Goodrich H10K/L10K pedals only buffered the signal (impedance matching), and didn't add any gain?
I sure can't tell any noticeable gain difference through my L10K vs a pot pedal. |
According to this description they do provide a little gain. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 28 Oct 2009 9:40 am
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From the Goodrich page that Lynn linked:
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| The H10K and L10K also offer up to 3.5 db of gain. |
Interesting, I wonder if it's an internal adjustment or what? I never noticed anything adjustable in there before..
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Bryan Daste
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2009 2:33 am
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| After reading this thread, I grabbed a cheap little ART TubeMP preamp I have (when I say cheap, it was like $30) and put it between my steel and my Goodrich L10k volume pedal. I have the controls on the ART, both input and output gain, set at about 12 o'clock. It really did subtly, but noticeably, enhance the sustain - the best way I can describe it is that it feels like the volume pedal has "more to work with." I just ordered a Seymour Duncan Twin Tube Classic as an early birthday present, so I'll try that in the same position and report back. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Nov 2009 5:14 pm
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| Quote: |
| It really did subtly, but noticeably, enhance the sustain - the best way I can describe it is that it feels like the volume pedal has "more to work with." |
That's why I always recommend turning your amp all the way up!  |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 12 Nov 2009 6:36 pm
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| Amen, Donny! |
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