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Topic: A Real Beginner's Copedent |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 7:25 am |
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Sometimes I think that the E9th is just way too complex for kids and other beginners. It seems to me that the basic pedal steel concepts could be taught with a simple C major 6-string copedent:
| Tab: |
LKL LKR P1 P2 P3 RKL
E +F
C +C# ++D -B
G ++A ++A
E --D +F
C +C# -B
G ++A |
I also think that you wouldn't need special "steel guitar" strings for this. A medium gauge guitar set would work fine.
What do you think?
_________________
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 7:48 am
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I'm inclined to agree. I started out with a 8-string (4+1) major tuning (with chromatics), and I had a ball! 
You can do so much with so little if you just stop following the crowd. But today, it seems, many players would stutter if they had no full-tone lower on 6, and no full-tone raise on 1. I have both on my new steel, but rarely use either of them. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 8:13 am
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Music theory is so much easier to learn from the key of C. Also, this tuning is the same notes as a C chord on the guitar, so someone could tune it by ear just by asking their guitar-playing buddy for a C chord.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 10:14 am
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| bob, I only see one problem. The beginner gets out of the beginner stage he'll have to buy a E9 PSG and begin all over again. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 10:24 am
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Not really, Stuart. It is the same as E9th, but pitched lower. Everything you learn on this tuning can be applied directly to E9th. Besides, nobody has to play E9th. Learning the note names of positions in C will make standard C6th easier to learn, too.
A lot of people start on C6th lap steel before getting an E9th pedal steel. This would make that transition easier.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 11:34 am
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I see your point, but I think it's a better idea for beginners to just start out on lap steel, and then transition to E9th or C6th pedal steel from there. They'll have to learn bar control and proper picking and technique anyway, so why not just learn it on a lap steel and add the pedals later? Isn't that what most of us did?
Also, beginners shouldn't spend their money on an instrument that they'll play for a year, and will be hard to sell.
And most beginners already have some experience on regular guitar, so they'd be most familiar with the positions in E, rather than in C, even though C is easier for theory.
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www.pedalsteel.ca |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 11:36 am
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What if it sold for under $500?  |
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David Collins
From:
Madison, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 11:39 am
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I agree b0b. I might suggest open E tuning, just for the sake of transitioning to E9, but I think 6 with a simple set up would be great!
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David Collins
www.chjoyce.com |
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 11:39 am
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If it could be sold that cheap, then it would be a good idea.
But I'd change the copedent a bit....put it in E, and maybe put a 9th on top instead of the 5th at the bottom...seems necessary for melody stuff...
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www.pedalsteel.ca |
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Rusty Smith
From:
Mount Horeb, Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 12:20 pm Re: A Real Beginner's Copedent
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| b0b wrote: |
Sometimes I think that the E9th is just way too complex for kids and other beginners. It seems to me that the basic pedal steel concepts could be taught with a simple C major 6-string copedent:
| Tab: |
LKL LKR P1 P2 P3 RKL
E +F
C +C# ++D -B
G ++A ++A
E --D +F
C +C# -B
G ++A |
I also think that you wouldn't need special "steel guitar" strings for this. A medium gauge guitar set would work fine.
What do you think? |
I am not a kid but somewhat of a beginner. I've played guitar for 40+ years and mainly bluegrass or acoustic for most of that time. After getting into Gypsy Jazz a few years back I began working on some jazz standards. That led to the lap steel and now pedal steel for the last year or two. I like like old school country but don't have a desire to learn it right now. So what did I do? Bought a used E9 and re-rodded and set it up for C6. Here is the copedant I've been working with.You could use strings 2-7 for a 6 string beginner to learn on and still transition later to something else and not have a lot of differences. Of course I could be way off base.<G> YMMV
https://howdy.doit.wisc.edu/c6-copedent.html
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Rusty Smith
Mount Horeb WI |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Les Anderson
From:
The Great White North
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 12:41 pm
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I love the idea B0B; however, if I were to teach a beginner to play a steel guitar, I would be more apt to get the newbie to first find the basic chords patterns with bar slants. I have found out that it's much easier to go from using bar slants to pedals than it is to drop the pedals and use only bar slants.
As of late, a friend of mine has been bringing his MSA over to my place and we switch back and forth between my Remington D10 and his MSA D10 (5-4)). He is lost without the pedals where I am finding it an easy transition from bar slants to pedals; using C6 of course.
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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!) |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 2:56 pm
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| Well,,, I can only tell about my own experience starting out. I couldn't get the tuning. I'd played guitar and ojnab for 15 years. Always finger-picking, so the right had was no problem. But the tuning made no sense to me. Finally took a lesson. Told Kenny about my problems with the tuning. He handed me a Tele, and told me to barre at the 4th fret and play a C shape chord. He asked if I knew what chord it was and I said, "E." He told me to forget about the first two strings for a while, and that the E chord I was playing on 6-string was pretty much how a steel was tuned. Then he showed me what the pedals did, and had me play those chords on the Tele. Lightbulbs went off, and I was giggin' in 4 weeks. I think his approach was perfect for a pupil with good 6-string skills. |
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 4:13 pm
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As long as the major chord is there, its a simple matter of fret translation.
I learned on a 6 string in open A. It helped that the same tuning appears on 10-8-6-5-4-3 with A & B pedals down (mashed). Made learning E chord positions easier too.
JMHO |
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Brian Pelky
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 29 Sep 2009 8:25 am
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Neat idea. Would make it easier to understand what is going on theoretically for the beginner. However, I can see that it would make it awkward on the right hand technique when strings 7 and 9 get thrown in the mix on the 10 string. So what about making it an 8 string and have dummy strings on 5 and 7? Of course, if one was going to go to that trouble it could be a 10 string with 4 dummy strings and just retune it to C for a while.
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Sho-Bud Super Pro D10,Tele,Strat,Martin D-28,Korg Triton Pro,Nashville 400 |
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Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2009 11:21 am learning the triks on a six
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B0b, I love your idea. If it is possible to manufacture and sell for under 500.00 this could help many a curious picker to take that next step.  Don D. |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2009 3:57 pm
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B0b, I think most pedal steel players will be coming from playing 6-string guitar and/or bass guitar. For that reason I think it would be less confusing to use an E major tuning, so that at least the no-pedals chords will be found in the usual places on the fretboard.
John |
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted 29 Sep 2009 6:26 pm
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This information was taking from Fulawka Steel Guitars Website:
These are pictures of a 6 string pedal guitar. While it looks like a steel, it is not. It is tuned the same as a regular guitar, but has 6 floor pedals and 5 knee levers. This makes it possible to play 5 notes on any string at any fret, depending on the pedals/levers used. There have only been two of these made.
_________________
Comeau SD10 4x5, Comeau S10 3x5, Peavey Session 500,Fender Telecaster,Fender Stratocaster, Fender Precision,1978 Ovation Viper electric. Alvarez 4 strings Violin electric.
Click the links to listen to my Comeau's Pedal Steel Guitars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIYiaomZx3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2GhZTN_yXI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvDTw2zNriI |
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jeff reynolds
From:
Jackson, Ms.
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Posted 2 Oct 2009 10:21 am e9 / beginner / kids..
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AWw shoot guys come on.... E9 aint that hard. I might not know all the great licks But it doesn't take much knowledge to use your ears and know what strings/ notes TO NOT Play !
LOL ! |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 2 Oct 2009 11:30 am psg
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| 6 string Rickenbacker tuned to C6th was my first taste of learning at age 11 or 12, I think. Then the Emmons p/p at 14. That was about 75 guitars ago or so! It was Byrd, Wiggins and Helms first. Then came Hughey, Green, Emmons and so many others. |
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Joe Kaufman
From:
Lewiston, Idaho
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Posted 2 Oct 2009 1:19 pm
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I think that is a great idea Bob. I don't see any reason why after a person gets a grasp of the theory, that they couldn't restring up to lo-to-hi BEG#BEG# and just retune the pedals!
I think for the purposes of cheap entry to pedal steel, a pull/release set up with a stripped down version like this might be made very cheaply.
| Tab: |
Tab:
LKL LKR P1 P2 P3
G# +A
E +F ++F#
B ++C# ++C#
G# +A
E -D#
B ++C#
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 4 Oct 2009 10:42 am
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| Interesting. I printed this up so I can give it further thought. |
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Eddie D.Bollinger
From:
Calhoun City, Mississippi
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Posted 4 Oct 2009 11:20 am
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bOb, Do you have a specific steel in mind for this copedant? Or steel builder?
Knowing my own limitations and lack of ability,
I think a 6 string would be a great second, or maybe
a "church" guitar. Lightweight / quick to setup.
Pat, do you know any price ranges on the Fulawka 6 string? Fulawka's are great instruments from what I have seen at St. Louis.
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Eddie Bollinger
Mullen RP D-10 w/ Max-Tone
Nash 1000, Peavey PowerSlide |
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted 4 Oct 2009 11:34 am
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Eddie,
I don't know the prices he sold them for but i know Mr Fulawka told me once that a guy here in St-John New-Brunswick bought one of his 6 strings steel.
I don't think you can make a steel like that for 500$, even if it has only 6 strings it doesn't make it easyer to make the only different would be 4 fingers and 4 keys less and i think the cost would probably be almost the same as a regular 10 strings, i guess it all depends on the quality of the material use to build it.
just my opinion.............Pat 
_________________
Comeau SD10 4x5, Comeau S10 3x5, Peavey Session 500,Fender Telecaster,Fender Stratocaster, Fender Precision,1978 Ovation Viper electric. Alvarez 4 strings Violin electric.
Click the links to listen to my Comeau's Pedal Steel Guitars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIYiaomZx3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2GhZTN_yXI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvDTw2zNriI |
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