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Topic: Chromatic Tuners |
Richard Park
From:
Alexandria, Virginia
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Posted 11 Sep 2009 11:56 am |
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| Does anyone have a recommendation as to the best chromatic tuner? |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 11 Sep 2009 1:51 pm
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| I've gotten along for years with a Boss TU-12. |
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Benton Allen
From:
Muscle Shoals, Alabama, USA
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Posted 11 Sep 2009 3:25 pm
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I have several including the TU-12. The Peterson Strobo-Flip is the Rolls Royce in my book.
Benton |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 11 Sep 2009 4:06 pm
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The small $25 Korg chromatic works perfectly fine. I've had one for years, and my students drop it often, but it always works if you change the batteries every couple of years. You don't need anything fancier -- why waste money?
I just tune all my strings, pedals, knees, and splits to tempered tuning at the A=440 standard. Everything else is neurotic craziness in my book. The keyboards are tempered, the guitars and bass are tempered, the banjo and mandolin are tempered -- the entire western world has been perfectly happy with tempered tuning for hundreds of years, and it sounds flawless to my experienced ear. People who buy super-expensive tuners so they can tune to "just" tuning, or who try to compensate for cabinet drop by tuning some strings to 442.5 and some to 438.2 and other nonsense are just being obsessive, in my (not so humble, sorry) opinion. I think it's crazy, it's a waste of time and energy and money, and it's pure vanity to claim that they can hear the difference or that their bar hands are that accurate. Careful tempered tuning with a cheap tuner on a PSG is just fine in the real world...
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Kenneth Farrow
From:
Alaska, USA
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Posted 11 Sep 2009 5:28 pm chromatic tuners
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| Amen, Mr Hyman!! |
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Jeff Valentine
From:
Colorado Springs, USA
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Posted 11 Sep 2009 5:33 pm
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I'll have to agree with Benton on this one. If you're looking for sweetened tunings they come with 2 for E9 and at least 1 for C6.
-Jeff |
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Jack Ritter
From:
Enid, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 11 Sep 2009 5:54 pm
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I have had several brands thru the years, and I like the Peterson Stroboflip the best.
_________________
Zum D10 8x5,rev pre-amp, TC M300, Split 12, n-112, IZZY, Hilton vp, Geo L, BJS Hughey, Live Steel |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 11 Sep 2009 11:54 pm
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Barry, I agree those decimal places in tuning charts are silly. A rule of thumb is that anything less than +/- 5 cents (1.25 Hz) of the target is acceptable, especially while playing real music in a band, as opposed to sitting in a quiet room at home listening very closely. But the equal temper (ET) of a straight up meter is off by 14-16 cents (3.5-4 Hz) from the pure harmonies of Just Intonation (JI) chords. If you can’t hear that, or if it doesn’t bother you, then you are right. Forget about it and tune everything straight up ET by the simplest, cheapest chromatic meter you can find.
But, just as an educational experiment, everyone owes it to themselves to try tuning by ear in the traditional way steelers did before chromatic meters were available. Tune your Es or As straight up to a reference pitch, and tune everything else to that by ear to make pleasant sounding chords. Try that playing alone, playing with tracks, and playing with a band. Then try tuning everything straight up with a meter. If you hear no difference, or if you have no preference, then use whichever method is easier for you.
But, if you hear a difference, and prefer what you get with your ears, don’t be bullied by the meter police. You are in good company. The Jeff Newman charts are based on the way Lloyd Green tuned by ear. And that’s the way the vast majority of steelers have always tuned. That’s also the harmony used by the fretless strings and horns of orchestras, of the entire western world – for hundreds of years, as well as harmonizing vocalists. The idea that you can’t use pure JI harmonies while playing with tempered keyboards and fretted stringed instruments is simply wrong. The vast majority of recorded and live music you have ever heard that uses fretless strings, horns, vocalists, and, yes, steel guitars, along side tempered keyboards and fretted strings works just fine. Have you ever noticed a conflict? It can be done, and is done routinely.
Basically, if you can tune and harmonize with the pure harmonies of JI and prefer that, then do so. If you have to tune to ET as keyboards do, or you prefer that for convenience or whatever, then do so. The two methods can be blended acceptably by competent musicians, and this has been done for hundreds of years, including essentially all the live and recorded music you have ever heard.
This is a theoretical thing only in the sense that theory explains both JI and ET, and why and what the differences are. But you can only know what the differences actually sound like by trying both and experiencing the differences. It’s not that difficult, and is an interesting and valuable part of a musical education. Pretty much any chromatic meter can be used to tune either ET or JI, or some compromise in between.
Meters and charts are useful when you don’t have the luxury of listening carefully to tune by ear. The Newman charts, which seem to be the basis for presets in some meters, are useful approximations. But be aware that they incorporate specific amounts of cabinet drop, which may not be appropriate for your instrument. The differences in cabinet drop between instruments (say +/- 4 cents or 1 Hz) are much less than the differences between ear tuning to JI and tuning by a meter to ET (+/- 14 cents or 3.5 Hz for thirds). That’s why the chart tunings sound “sweeter” than tuning straight up ET by a meter, even if the cabinet drop incorporated into the chart tunings are not precisely appropriate for your own instrument. |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 5:24 am
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Dave -- I know what you mean. I tuned my guitars and steels by ear from 1964 to about 1995. I used a tuning fork for the E, and then tuned (PSG) so the E and B open chords sounded pleasing. But it was tuning the pedals and knees that never satisfied my fussy ear. I was aware that I was tuning to something approximating just tuning, which I had studied in school in 1970, and that the reason my open C# chord in particular sounded off was because of the difference between tempered and just tunings. So I drove myself nuts trying to compensate and compromise, and boy was I a happy camper when I bought my first digital tuner (after disdaining them for years with my cello and violin playing friends!) and found that all the chords on the steel finally sounded good!
I can certainly hear the difference between just and tempered tuning -- all I am saying is that tempered sounds quite good enough, whereas just tuning can cause problems. On the cds I have produced I had to use Auto Tune a lot to get the horns in tune -- the clash between their "pure" harmonics and the tempered tuning of the rest of the band was grating.
Interesting thread. I just hate to see PSG players, especially beginners, getting all crazy about tuning when they could be spending the time playing!
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com
Last edited by Barry Hyman on 13 Sep 2009 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 7:09 am
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| I forget who made them, or where I bought it, but many years ago I bought a little shelf that came with a leg mount that I can rest my little Boss tuner in. I have this plumbed into the output jack on my steel via an A-B box. Handiest setup I can come up with. |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 7:28 am
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Tuning by ear is always best.. if you have an ear.
Tuning at home for practice is usually done by ear just tweaking a few strings and changes using harmonics. If anything is way out or I have put new strings on the other day, I will turn on the tuner in my rack to get close, faster. I always turn off the ceiling fan too.
In a noisy environment, I always use the tuner for the added visual reference.
My first tuner was/is a Korg WT12 I still use it occaisionally. I never like that I had to dial it to each note (2 handed tuning) the newer version tell you what note you are close to.
I still plug in rather than leaving a tuner in-line...I should probably try that. |
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Geoff Cline
From:
Southwest France
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 8:07 am
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| Benton Allen wrote: |
I have several including the TU-12. The Peterson Strobo-Flip is the Rolls Royce in my book.
Benton |
There's a new Rolls Royce in town. The Turbo Tuner ST-122 is currently being revamped to have a metal housing and leg/mic stand clamp. It is a true strobe tuner (not virtual) and street price is $129.
I have no connection with this company but I am on this list to get one as soon as they are available. The owner is a great guy and very aware of the "unique tuning requirements of the steel guitar community."
Check them out on inter-web. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 8:18 am Re: Chromatic Tuners
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| Richard Park wrote: |
| Does anyone have a recommendation as to the best chromatic tuner? |
I can't answer that question, because I don't know which is "best".
I've been using an inexpensive Korg CA-30 for years. It does the job just fine and, for the price, one can have several of them.
It looks like Korg is no longer offering the CA-30, though; however, the CA-40 looks like a replacement.
Click Here
Lee, from South Texas |
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Stan Paxton
From:
1/2 & 1/2 Florida and Tenn, USA (old Missouri boy gone South)
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 8:50 am
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Again, this is something that is individual choice.  I have had a small Korg size of a deck of cards for many years, don't remember the model #, but one can use it to tune anyway you want to adjust for cabinet drop, or everything straight up. Small, easy to carry, easy on batteries, accurate, tough. ... Just took delivery on a Korg CA40 that Lee is talking about ($24.99 shipped from Zzounds); does a dandy job, with all the good attributes of the old one I still have. ... 
_________________
Mullen Lacquer SD 10, 3 & 5; Mullen Mica S 10 1/2 pad, 3 & 5; BJS Bars; LTD400, Nashville 112, DD-3, RV-3, Hilton VP . -- Gold Tone PBS sq neck; Wechter Scheerhorn sq neck. -- "Experience is the thing you have left when everything else is gone." -anon.- |
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Will Holtz
From:
San Francisco, California, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 12:36 pm
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| Geoff Cline wrote: |
| The Turbo Tuner ST-122 is currently being revamped to have a metal housing and leg/mic stand clamp. |
Do you know if it will have a true bypass too? I've had my eye on the ST-122, but the combination of metal housing, clamp, and true bypass would be too good to pass up.
_________________
WillHoltz.com |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 12:53 pm
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| I use a black korg ca-30 like so many people. Its very consistent (the needle doesn't go flyin' all over like many others), and as long as I'm changing my strings when I need to, I don't mind that its not in line. To comment on the whole JT vs ET issue - One should bother you just as much as the other. In other words, being able to notice how far away from being in tune with the band you are (which is always a little), is just as important as tuning the "beats" out of your chord positions. So I try to take notice of where the needle is on my tuner when I'm sounding good with a band that sounds good, and then commit that to memory. Levers and pedals too. That makes life easier for me, being able to tune strings and pulls in a noisy room with a cheap tuner. - b |
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Jim Lindsey (Louisiana)
From:
Greenwell Springs, Louisiana (deceased)
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 1:49 pm
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I have a Korg DT-1 Pro Tuner in my rack and it's really served me well over the years.
_________________
1986 Mullen D-10 with 8 & 7 (Dual Bill Lawrence 705 pickups each neck)
Two Peavey Nashville 400 Amps (with a Session 500 in reserve) - Yamaha SPX-90 II
Peavey ProFex II - Yamaha R-1000 Digital Reverb - Ross Time Machine Digital Delay - BBE Sonic Maximizer 422A
ProCo RAT R2DU Dual Distortion - Korg DT-1 Pro Tuner (Rack Mounted) - Furman PL-8 Power Bay
Goodrich Match-Bro by Buddy Emmons - BJS Steel Bar (Dunlop Finger Picks / Golden Gate Thumb Picks) |
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Geoff Cline
From:
Southwest France
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 2:43 pm
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| Will Holtz wrote: |
| Geoff Cline wrote: |
| The Turbo Tuner ST-122 is currently being revamped to have a metal housing and leg/mic stand clamp. |
Do you know if it will have a true bypass too? I've had my eye on the ST-122, but the combination of metal housing, clamp, and true bypass would be too good to pass up. |
Hey Will:
I believe it will, but we should double check with TT. Since there other unit is true bypass, I can't imagine the revamped ST-122 won't be. Really looking forward to getting it. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 5:19 pm
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If you're tuning "straight up" with a tuner, and the tuner is tempered for guitar, you're not really tuning "straight up", are you?  |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 14 Sep 2009 5:37 am
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Donny -- what do you mean? If I tune on my $25 chromatic tuner so that the needle is straight up, all green, no red, that is tempered tuning. Not "tempered for guitar" -- tempered for everything. All 12 tones are mathematically equidistant, which solves the same problem that it solved in Bach's time -- that all the different keys, from C major to F# major (or all the different strings and pulls at any given fret, in PSG terms) are equally in tune. What did you mean -- I don't get it.
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Bill Mayville
From:
Las Vegas Nevada * R.I.P.
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Posted 14 Sep 2009 6:52 am Richard Park
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If I didn,t enjoy flack,I would not 9include myself with this topic.
Tuning with a tuner,or rely on pretty old ears.
Piano,s use a plus and a minus tuning,just like Mr.E and Jeff.Explained years ago was the ear verses the tuner.A few can tune by ear.
Some times at a steel convention,you will see a pro tune by ear.Very impressive til you see that person tune again, and again,and____
According to the greatest teacher of all time,when tuning a Pedal steel guitar,it is metal to metal stops. No give. So tuning to 440 will NOT work.A steel is an E guitar.Strings 4 and 8 are E notes.They have have to be at 440.Yes i know the same teacher later said to tune sharp on the E.s
Every time I try it I get a pain in the stomach.
In the key of A,and using the chord of F,it will not be in tune, Tuning straight up.
That is why a tuner is so popular.
It has been a while, since I have done session work on a regular guitar.I never tuned to 440 on that guitar.It won't be in tune with other instruments.
My emmons tuning I used to use, went down to -22 for the F lever. -11.5 for the D lever (lower of the to D#)...
Being tone deaf should is very common in the musicans world.Some musicians can play music all day and night,but have never created any music or made any music.Doesn.t mean they are not good.Some players are in the closet,and should come out.
Others maybe should go back in the closet.
If you want to discuss this further my E Mail is,,,
pedalcrazy@taylortel.net.
By the way.I went to Bobby Lee,s web site.Give a listen to his playing.
Bill Mayville
_________________
Bill Mayville
06 Jackson Commemorative ,S 10
Black.For Sale . $18,000 Kidding |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Sep 2009 10:12 am
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| Barry Hyman wrote: |
| If I tune on my $25 chromatic tuner so that the needle is straight up, all green, no red, that is tempered tuning. Not "tempered for guitar" -- tempered for everything. All 12 tones are mathematically equidistant, which solves the same problem that it solved in Bach's time -- that all the different keys, from C major to F# major (or all the different strings and pulls at any given fret, in PSG terms) are equally in tune. |
Uhhh...no. There isn't just one temper for all instruments, and the idea of using different tempers moves away from the old "mathematically equidistant" idea. Any tuning system, let me repeat: any tuning system is based on compromises, and it's important to realize that because it emphasizes that there is no "perfect" way to tune. Since different top-level players use different methods, it signifies that different systems will work. Tuning is the small part of the equatiuon. Playing in tune is the larger part. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 14 Sep 2009 10:19 am
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I'm guessing Barry was referring to "equal temperament".
This is quickly headed down the old ET vs JI tuning wars road.
Have we determined which chromatic tuner is best yet?  |
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Lynn Oliver
From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 14 Sep 2009 12:32 pm
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| Geoff Cline wrote: |
| There's a new Rolls Royce in town. The Turbo Tuner ST-122 is currently being revamped to have a metal housing and leg/mic stand clamp. It is a true strobe tuner (not virtual) and street price is $129. |
The ST-122 looks pretty cool in the demo, but I wonder about having just single frequency displayed. It's nice being able to see the fundamental and several overtones on the Peterson tuners. |
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Shane Glover
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2009 9:10 pm Thanks David Doggett !!
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After reading this thread and trying David D's method I finally Feel like I am in tune. I have not played a gig tuning this way so I am excited about this week end. I hope my search is over. Thanks again David !!
Shane |
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