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Topic: A Mandolin quandary.... |
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 23 Sep 2009 5:50 pm |
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I have a mandolin, but can hardly play it. I know some changes but can't remotely describe myself as even competent.
However: I've been offered a pit job that involves some mandolin-playing. I don't have the time to become proficient on the instrument, so I'm considering changing all the strings and replicating normal guitar tuning - if I don't do that, I fear the reading would be too challenging.
SO: Any suggestions about string gauges for such a project? It'll have to be D, G, B, E (4,3,2,1,) and I'd need to retain the unison pairs as well as the lower two, the D and G, with an octave between them.
Or - do I use regular guitar gauges and simply cut them down to the length required for such a short-scale instrument?
I know it's cheating, but if it's good enough for Tommy Tedesco it's good enough for me!!!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2009 6:44 pm
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Don't let Bill Monroe hear you talking about doing that.  |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2009 6:51 pm
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| There's a guy around L.A. in a band called "The Brombies" named George Doering who does that and plays very well because he's such a great guitar player. As far as strings go - well the high E and the G are already there so I would use those existing gauges for those notes and just extrapolate the B and low D gauges from there.Mandola strings w/loop ends are available in gauges lower than a mandolin BTW. After this gig I urge you to embrace the 5ths tuning. Once internalized it makes so much sense it's scary. For one thing it's completely symetrical and every line and chord shape is moveable - plus it will have a 5th more range than a guitar tuned mando. I've been playing mando for a number of years now and I'm glad I learned the regular tuning on it's own terms. The short scale tuned in 5ths is what makes it sound like a mandolin IMO. |
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Tom Keller
From:
Greeneville, TN, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2009 6:59 pm
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Roger, I am thinking you may have to make a custom set for your project. You could always buy a standard mandolin set and use all the strings but the G's which are going to be too heavy for your purposes. Then simply pick up a couple of strings that meet your gauge requirements. Your going to have to decide whether you want wound or unwound G's.
Regards |
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D Schubert
From:
Columbia, MO, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2009 7:00 pm
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I've never done what you're about to do, but you could probably make it work for one gig. A couple of thoughts....
Regular mandolin tuning does not use octaves, all strings are paired in unison.
Typical medium string gages are
hi E.....0.011"
A........0.016"
D........0.O26"
G........0.040"
The E and D above will be your 1st and 4th string pairs. Tune like a guitar at the 12th fret. As a wild guess for gages, I'd start with something like this...
hi E......0.011"
B.........0.014"
G.........0.018"
D.........0.026" |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 23 Sep 2009 9:13 pm
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How about stringing a 12-string with unison strings (from the G down,B and E are there already) and capoing it up ?
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Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2009 9:58 pm Re: A Mandolin quandary....
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
IIt'll have to be D, G, B, E (4,3,2,1,)....
I know it's cheating, but if it's good enough for Tommy Tedesco it's good enough for me!!!
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Tommy also tuned one like EADG the bottom of the guitar, because DGBE could not reach the lowest notes of standard mandolin tuning. (both one octave hihger than guitar) |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2009 10:01 pm
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| Michael Johnstone wrote: |
| There's a guy around L.A. in a band called "The Brombies" named George Doering who does that and plays very well because he's such a great guitar player. |
George switched to standard mandolin tuning. He cheated with guitar tuning when they first started up the bluegrass band, because he wanted to concentrate more on his singing. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 24 Sep 2009 1:35 am
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ok, the other view point. Why not just spend an hour a day learning the Mandolin! The tuning is what makes it special !
I have been teaching my wife to play the dang thing, she has NO instrument experience whatsoever, after a month she is playing and singing several songs on her own.
Tommy Tedesco probably knew exactly why he was doing what he did, so it was not cheating. I say, put the time in and begin with the basic cords a few scales , a few stock licks and go from there.
It really won't take much time to understand the tuning layout if you put yourself on a daily practice schedule and apply the music theory that you already know from other instruments. And no, I'm not a seasoned Mando player, I play just enough to get by.
take some YouTube lessons, start with Copperhead Road. and a few real basic Bluegrass tunes...
or
Change the tuning !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 24 Sep 2009 5:24 am
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Tony: This is not about noodling around and making a passable stab at the chords and licks in a bluegrass song - I can already do that to a reasonable extent. This is about confronting a mandolin/guitar 'book' from a Broadway musical and playing everything to the note. My reading - while not first-class - will get me through, but I need the familiarity of a tuning of which I have a solid grasp, and I don't think pedal-steel will be seen as an acceptable substitute!
All this will be under the watchful eyes and ears of a conductor/musical director well noted for requiring things to be exactly as they appear on the page. I did 'Cabaret' for him last year, so I already know that nothing escapes his attention! While in his 'pit', one is certainly allowed the odd mistake, but it had better only occur once!
The gig (a six-week 'run') is too close for me to attempt to embrace the '5th' intervals of the standard tuning, so I have no choice.
I have no doubt that Tommy Tedesco didn't have any arcane justification for re-tuning everything in his arsenal (mando, oud, balalaika, banjo, etc) to standard guitar-tuning - he did it so that his fearsome reputation as a sight-reader would remain intact. He implies as much in his excellent book.
So he WAS cheating!
Mr. Schubert:
Thanks for your comments - I'm now horribly embarrassed!!! Of course all the string-pairs are unison! My only excuse for the error is that I just tuned up a Taylor 12-string guitar yesterday, so the 'octave' thing was in my head when I opened this thread.
Earnest - Hi! If I can get my hands on the book ahead of time, I'll have to check for the low-end of the mando parts; thanks for the tip!
Of course the mando's tuning is a big part of its characteristics, but desperate times call for desperate measures! I promise I will eventually get to grips with the real thing!
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I suppose my real query was a matter of physics; if I take a regular guitar 'E' string (say a .012" gauge) then shorten it to a mandolin's significantly-smaller scale, will it still have an acceptable tension when tuned to 'concert'?
Many thanks to all for your contributions!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2009 10:32 am
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I have "doubled" on mandolin for many years in the studio and in Broadway musicals and such. I tune it like a guitar. I don't want to know any more about the instrument than I need to know to play a double type part which is usually written into a show knowing that the part will be played by a guitar player who does not know the mando tuning. I also have no desire to put any time into learning another tuning. I also tune my banjo like a guitar. When I played sitar in the studio I also tuned it like guitar.
The regular mando string set will not work to pull up to guitar pitch. I change strings so infrequently on mine that I don't remember right off what use for string guages. You can use some of the mando set, but not all.
Most important...TAKE THE GIG. Worry about what to play between now and when the gig starts. 
My first mando gig came from a call from the Atlanta Opera. I did not even own a mandolin They were doing Mozarts "Don Juan" and there is a beautiful aria for vox/cellos and mandolin. When they told me it paid about $900 for the week, I went over to a pawn shop where I had been looking at a very decent F style imported mando. I bought it for a good price, took it home, restrung it, got the music, changed a few notes in the lower register and went to the rehearsal. The conductor did not even say hello..just looked at me and counted the piece off. When it was over the orchestra did the thing where they shuffle there feet and tap bows because they can't put the instruments down and clap. The conductor and most of all Herr Mozart did not know that I had a mando tuned like a guitar or had changed a few of the lower notes that were below D. I only had to play in that one song, so I would get to the theater about 10 mins before the song and sneak in the back of the orchestra...play the tune and sneak out. Good gig. I made a lot of money with that pawn shop mando since then. Still tuned like a guitar.
Last edited by Bill Hatcher on 24 Sep 2009 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 24 Sep 2009 10:38 am
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Thanks, Bill - I already took it!
I know I'll find a way to play in a more-than-satisfactory manner and, as you say, these doubling 'books' are usually 'guitar-player friendly'.
Time to dig out that mandolin from the closet...
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 25 Sep 2009 4:20 am
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Roger, ok well stated. I know that you are well schooled and I didn't realize the depth of the gig, given what you are doing I also would re-tune !
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 25 Sep 2009 4:42 am
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Good story, Bill - I'll be looking at some $800+ -weeks with this gig, so it's worth a bit of sweat!
Mandolins:
I have one of those cheap and nasty Fender 'A' style electrics which will suffice for the gig; it has a reasonable amount of volume acoustically and the electrics work. However......
My friend (and band-mate on my Summer gig in Medora, ND), Mark Baczynski, has an Epiphone import. It's an F-style 'MM' 50' (I think) with a rosewood face-plate in the headstock and some ornate fret-markers. I think it's a very nice-looking and pretty well-made instrument. Have you guys any opinion about who make the best 'affordable' 'F' style mandos?
As much as I enjoy attractive instruments, I think there'd be room in my closet for such a mandolin...
("What's that? Oh, nothing, dearest - I'm just writing on the Forum..."  )
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 25 Sep 2009 8:32 am
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Just a 'bump' - I'd love some input on 'F' style copies and their relative quality.
By the way, Tony - thanks for your reply.
All the best,
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Nathan Golub
From:
Durham, NC
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Posted 25 Sep 2009 10:07 am
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Roger, the lower end Eastman mandos are well made, look good and sound good. Here are some prices on new ones from Elderly, though I'd bet you can find them cheaper used on eBay or Gbase-
http://elderly.com/brand/90N_eastman.html
Kentucky also makes some decent F-style mandos at affordable prices, those would be worth checking out. I've always found a cheap mando to be much more difficult to play & keep in tune than a comparatively cheap guitar, so to me it would be worth looking into a well-made A style at the top of your price range than an F style at a similar price. |
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