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Topic: Cross Shafts - First Time Home Builder |
Eldon Cangas
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 Sep 2009 3:51 am |
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I've seen square, round and hexagonal. Which is better? I can see square or hex being the best for bell crank mounting but a bit of a bear to mount it in bearings at the ends. (that was awful!). Whereas I can see slippage on the round shafts.
Any thoughts would be appretiated. Thanks.
Eldon |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 Sep 2009 7:39 am
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Eldon,
To me it looks like square shafts are in the majority today. A few, like Mullen, use hex shafts. I love the ease with which they mount their bell cranks securely with one set screw But it takes fancy equipment to make a hex hole in a bell crank.
Square is the overall winner on modern steels because they are simplest to obtain and make.
All you need is to round each end of the cross shaft in order to mount them in sleeves or bearings.
With round shafts you have the added difficulty of changing bell cranks around when adding pulls or re-setting a copedent.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 18 Sep 2009 9:14 am
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| Bent Romnes wrote: |
| Square is the overall winner on modern steels because they are simplest to obtain and make. |
I'll second that. Square are easiest to work with and make parts for.
But...
| Bent Romnes wrote: |
| With round shafts you have the added difficulty of changing bell cranks around when adding pulls or re-setting a copedent. |
...personally I prefer round cross shafts in PSGs though, because I like to fine-tune the bell crank angles for balanced throw. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 Sep 2009 9:24 am
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Georg, fine tuned throw is obtained by having enough holes in your bell crank, and taking pains to level at least six holes in the crank to the six holes in the raise and lower bars. That's why I have started to favor the 14-hole Emmons bell cranks. That way, there will always be a hole that fits 
I believe it is best to keep the bell crank as close to vertical as possible, or that the crank ends up vertical at the end of its throw.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 18 Sep 2009 10:44 am
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Sure, Bent, but I'm quirky you know
While you hook up the rods in each bell crank, I prefer the old MSA/Dekley models with "endless rods" that can be cut to length after they're mounted in, that can be run through and engaged by more than one bell crank.
It is this through mounting that makes it possible for me to have so many raise/lower combinations and octave-tuned strings on so few pedals/levers in my "Ugly Duckling" without running out of raises/lowers at the changer.
That it also makes it hard to find someone who can build a new PSG to my specifications, is another matter. I'll address that by mod'ing old PSGs slightly myself, until I'm ready to build PSGs from scratch - maybe "mecatronic" 
The bell crank holes in my Dekley are zig-zag'ed, which makes angle-trimming of the bell cranks necessary. Shaping new bell cranks that can be put in/replaced on round shafts without having to loosen the shaft, is no big deal either. Slightly more complex than using square shafts and straight lines of holes, but not by much - and I like the improved tuning-flexibility. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 Sep 2009 11:09 am
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Yes, Georg...but send me an email about it.
Eldon asked a specific question that he deserves an answer to.
You and I getting into a different realm of cross rod/bell crank that is not favorable to Eldon's purpose.
Others...please give your opinions for Eldon.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 4:52 am
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I agree with Bent on the square shafts for ease of setup change, but when is the last time you changed your setup? On my red guitar,2002,changed from Day to Emmons, on my MSA, when I got it,(about four years ago)I changed it from a uni to ext E9 to match red. As far as the vertical position, you could get int a never ending geometry debate on that one.
BTW..there is a tool to cut the round bearing surface on the end of the square shaft, can be used in a drill press.
Edited to say...Change???? I'm still trying to learn my original setup !!!!!!!!!
BF
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Eldon Cangas
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 5:01 am
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Thanks Guys!
Now Bill, tell me more about this tool that mounts in a drill press and cuts the bearing surface on the square rod. While we are at it what material are the cross shafts made of.
Thanks! Eldon |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 5:46 am
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| Actually the bearing surfaces on a square cross shaft are made in a lathe and the material is most commonly stainless steel. A drill press is designed to go up and down and do not like the sideways motion that cutting a bearing surface requires. As an aside, there are square to round adapters available that enable one to use a "square peg in a round hole". |
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Bobby Burns
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 6:04 am
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I remember some youtube videos of Eddie Falawkwa cutting the end of square shafts with a tool that chucked up in a drill press. The tool tuned, and the part was stationary, so all the pressure was down.
I think for the first time builder, round shafts are easier, and it's a whole lot easier to make bellcranks with a round hole. Just find some hot rolled steel, cut it to length and quit worrying about it. All you really need is a hacksaw and a file, and a drill. The shaft is steel, the bellcrank is aluminum. If you are concerned about the bellcrank slipping, file, grind or mill a flat to seat your set screw against.
Use whatever tools you have and figure out how to make it work. It ain't that complicated a machine, and it ain't going to the moon. No matter how you do it, your going to redo it a few times, and fiddle with it a lot before it suits you, if it's your first one. You will learn a lot in the process.
Listen to everyone who has played or built a steel. Look at as many old and new designs as you can. Figure out how they work, decide what you think is a good idea, or a bad one. Decide what is really necessary, and what is just extra work and expense. Remember, it's a musical instrument first, a machine second. It has to sound and look good too.
The most important thing for the first time builder to do, is just build Something. There will be things you thought would be a big deal that are not, and things you never thought about that are. Every body likes different things. You will make better decisions on the second one, if at least some of you design is based on your own thoughts and opinions and experience, instead of just basing them on other folks thoughts and opinions. |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 6:20 am
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| Bobby Burns wrote: |
| I remember some youtube videos of Eddie Falawkwa cutting the end of square shafts with a tool that chucked up in a drill press. The tool tuned, and the part was stationary, so all the pressure was down.[/i] |
Eldon, This is the tool that I was referring to, if you have access to a lathe,there is a simple jig you can make to use a 3 jaw chuck to turn a round bearing surface on a square shaft. I can post a drawing if someone is interested.
Bill
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Bobby Burns
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 6:25 am
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| Bill, by all means post a picture. |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 7:02 am
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Please excuse the crudeness of my drawing ability. Measure your square stock,point to point (dim "A")start with a 1" long piece of round stock, center drill/bore to this size, the outside dia. needs to be large enough to have at least a 1/8" wall thickness when finished, cut a 1/8" slot end to end so the collar will collapse enough to hold firmly. The bore should be a snug fit when the square stock is inserted, place the shaft into the collar, and place in 3 jaw chuck as pictured....Bill
Changed wall thickness 1/8"
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!!
Last edited by Bill Ford on 19 Sep 2009 8:01 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 7:03 am
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If you are never going to change the set up then round is fine and easy.
Square makes it easy to change the cranks when you want to change a pull. |
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Martin Weenick
From:
Lecanto, FL, USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 7:20 am Cross Shaft
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The cutter you describe is an "anular cutter" I use a 11/16 O.D. cutter which gives me a little less than 5/16 O.D. on the end of the shaft. They are about $30.00 and you can buy them at Enco, or any other tool supply. They come in two lengths, one and two inches. Get the one that is one inch long. You will need a chuck capacity of 3/4 inches to chuck it up. Martin.
_________________
Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7 |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 7:21 am
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Bobby, lots of wisdom in your post. Bobby covered everything and there is nothing I can add to that.
I just wanted to describe how Eddie does his rounds...
He uses a hollow end mill that he has mounted in a custom made holder, in the drill press. First, he has a round-over type tool in one drill press, where he just starts the round on the shaft. Not sure what this tool looks like; could be a hollow mill of a slightly larger diameter.
Then, when he goes to cut the round in the second drill press, he has the shaft mounted perfectly vertical and brings the end mill down over the shaft after giving the shaft a liberal dose of grease. Ed's cross shafts are 5/16" and made of keystock type steel. Works good for ole Eddie....
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Martin Weenick
From:
Lecanto, FL, USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 7:41 am
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Here it is, Martin.
_________________
Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7 |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 9:08 am
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There it is, Thanks Martin. Of course you do it in the mill which is better than Eddies drill press set-up.
That's a great vise you have also. Can't wait till I win the lottery and can buy all these goodies
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Martin Weenick
From:
Lecanto, FL, USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 9:48 am
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Bent, thats not a vise, it's called a 5-C collet holder. Cost - $39.00. You can get square or round, or hex 5-C collets for about $8.00 each. I just clamp the 5-C holder in my mill vise rather than bolt it down to the mill table. It takes about 10 minutes to make a full set of cross shafts. Martin.
_________________
Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7 |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 12:02 pm
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| That is the same internal end milling cutter used to cut the round ferrule station on the end of a hexagonal bamboo fly rod section. |
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 4:45 pm
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Is there a major difference between materials like...stainless, steel or aluminum for cross shafts?
or is it just for looks with stainless steel?.
i build my last steel with aluminum 3/8 rod and i'm now working on my next 2 steel projects and i'm gonna go with round shaft cause it's easy to make the shafts and bellcranks.
_________________
Comeau SD10 4x5, Comeau S10 3x5, Peavey Session 500,Fender Telecaster,Fender Stratocaster, Fender Precision,1978 Ovation Viper electric. Alvarez 4 strings Violin electric.
Click the links to listen to my Comeau's Pedal Steel Guitars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIYiaomZx3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2GhZTN_yXI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvDTw2zNriI |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 6:25 pm
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Pat, the major difference is the hardness of the material. The harder it is, the harder it machines.
Then you have the weight factor. That's why a lot of aluminum is used in steel guitars.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 6:31 pm
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Also, the harder the metal, the harder it is for set screws to bite.
Remember to use cupped set screws. |
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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...but that's not what i'm asking, maybe i should of said...is there a difference in tone with different materials.?