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Topic: Changer Materials |
Eldon Cangas
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 Sep 2009 4:06 pm |
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| What materials are the changers made out of? Thanks! Eldon |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 4:09 am
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Eldon,
It varies.
A few modern steels have stainless steel in the fingers.
My guess is that most builders use 6061-T6 aluminum, or 7075 aluminum in the fingers and pillow blocks.
The raise and lower bar parts are usually made out of 1/16" steel - stainless or galvanized. The changer axle can be made out of steel or a hardened aluminum. My preference would be to use a hard as possible steel bar 1/2" diameter.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 6:05 am
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| MSA is using 2024 aluminum for the fingers- like Emmons used in the push pull guitars. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 7:38 am
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Jim, that's interesting because the 7075 numbers for tensile strength, shear strength, Brinell hardness etc are higher than for 2024.
I suppose then that MSA's choice has to do with tonal properties, that the 2024 numbers are "high enough"?
Can I be reading the numbers wrong? I see where 2024 is obviously a higher quality material judging by the price comparisons. 2024 is much more money than 7075.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 7:55 am
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| Harder is not always better, neither is softer. There is a happy medium builders seek for optimum resonance. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 8:08 am
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| It is my belief that 2024 was selected by MSA starting with the Studio Pro model due to the recommendations of Jay Dee Maness in his attempt to recreate the sound he wanted hear. I can tell you for a fact that altering the scale length from 24" to 24 1/4" and changing out the changer fingers to 2024 made a substantial difference in the tone of my Legend (the first one that MSA made). I know this because I did a direct comparison with Dean Park's Studio Pro before and after the change. Before the change there was a noticeable difference in tonal qualities and after the change the two guitars sounded identical. The nice thing about the comparison is that we were able to do the comparison using the same pickup due to MSA's modular pickup design. I do not know which of the changes was primarily responsible for the change in the tone of my Legend because, even though the changes were affected at two different times about a month apart and I thought I detected a difference in tone after I performed the first swap which was the fingers (from 6061 to 2024), the comparison wasn't performed until after the keyhead and neck swap was done. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 10:41 am
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| Jim P., there are people on this Forum actually trying to argue that tone is in the hands and that construction materials in a guitar do not give it any inherent tone. I'm glad you know better. Having owned the guitar I'm sure the difference was quite noticeable to you. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 11:23 am
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| I can't disagree that tone is in the hands as it is more than a little obvious when someone-anyone- other than me plays my guitar it sounds quite different. I believe that most guitars have their own inherent tone, resonant qualities, etc., and that is one of the characteristics that we hear when a player is playing. The other characteristics include the player(s) technique, amp settings, strings, effects, etc. That being said, it is my own personal belief that, of the elements in the sound chain, it is the player that is the most influential in the ultimate output. I have heard Reece sit at a number of guitars- all having their own tonal characteristics- especially at the outset of the playing- and w/in minutes they all end up sounding pretty much alike as he tends to be able to get “his” sound by subtly adapting his technique to attain what he is used to hearing. |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 1:52 pm
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Kevin and Jim,
You have helped me finally figure out my tone problem!!!!
My hands are tone deaf.
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Jimmie Martin
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 2:25 pm tone
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Bill, everything about me is tone deaf.  |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 4:06 am
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Jim P., I have a logical question for you. If you believe that tone is pretty much in the hands (as you stated), and that hand technique can make one steel guitar sound like another, why then would you go through the effort to change the changer material and the scale length of your guitar?
I have sat in front of (in the audience) Emmons, Green, White, Beavers, Cox, and others playing different brand steel guitars at the ISGC over the years and none of them had the same tone on two different brand guitars. Tom Brumley's sound was radicaly different on a Mullen verses his sound on his original ZB's. Both being typical tone for the brand of steel guitar.
Last edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 Sep 2009 6:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Franklin
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 5:11 am
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| Kevin Hatton wrote: |
Jim P., I have a logical question for you. If you believe that tone is pretty much in the hands (as you stated), and that hand technique can make one steel guitar sound like another, why then would you go through the effort to change the changer material and the scale length of your guitar?
[ I have sat in front of Emmons, Green, White, Beavers, Cox, and others playing different brand steel guitars at the ISGC over the years and none of them had the same tone on two different brand guitars.] Tom Brumley's sound was radicaly different on a Mullen verses his sound on his original ZB's. Both being typical tone for the brand of steel guitar. |
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Doug Rolfe
From:
Indianapolis, IN
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 5:17 am
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| Kevin, I have a logical question for you. If tone is in the instrument as you say, then why was NO ONE on the forum able to tell the difference in Randy Beaver's CD when he used a Zum on some of the songs and the ultimate P/P on others. It appears that Randy's hands took care of any tonal differences if there were any. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 5:18 am
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Paul, could you please elaborate. I'd be interested in your observations. Doug, I wasn't aware of that NO ONE could tell the difference. Have you asked everyone on the Forum? Its my observation that tone resides in the whole chain. From player though the amp setup, with the guitar being a good sized factor.
By the way, I hear alot of the same tonal characteristics between a Zum Hybrid and and Emmons P/P/. They have a similar tone to me. I've seen Randy play both live, and I was there the first time he played his Hybrid at the NTSGA. I think that people have different observations, and thats okay. Sitting in the audience (by sitting in front of I meant in the audience) at the convention gives people an opportunnity to observe both playing styles and equipment. What I hear may not be what others hear. My opinion here doesn't make me right. Only right for me, which is why I am always interested in other Forum members observations.
Last edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 Sep 2009 6:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 6:21 am
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| It is apparent that there are those who are bound and determined to prove something here forming conclusions by latching onto parts of replys and ignoring the rest. Tone by nature is a subjective topic and, as such, all I can offer is simply my opinion and don't see the rationale in trying to convince anyone that I am right or wrong. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 6:38 am
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| I understand Jim. Thanks for your observations. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 6:53 am
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| Jim Palenscar wrote: |
| It is apparent that there are those who are bound and determined to prove something here forming conclusions by latching onto parts of replys and ignoring the rest. Tone by nature is a subjective topic and, as such, all I can offer is simply my opinion and don't see the rationale in trying to convince anyone that I am right or wrong. |
Lots of wisdom in those words, Jim.
With that, I would like for you all to hear what a homebuilt steel sounds like. I built this steel for Dave Seddon, the second one in my building "career"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3yaWH2BA3w
and here is a gospel medley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmvVMUj7dzc
slightly different sound from the same guitar, but still beautiful to my ears.
Nothing special about this steel..on close inspection one could say it looks amateurish in spots. But it did get a whole lot of TLC while being built, and a great pickup.
I say, combine this with the artist's hands, and it's a sure winner.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 7:07 am
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| Beautiful job on that steel Bent. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 7:33 am
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Bent,
after having heard the 'gospel medley' I'll have to credit you for having built a really, really, good sounding steel. 
(The first clip didn't tell my ears anything about the steel, as there was too much "masking" in the sound chain  ) |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 7:46 am
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| Kevin Hatton wrote: |
| Beautiful job on that steel Bent. |
Thanks so much Kevin. You did a good job on the case too. Not a scratch. Well, one little screw fell out of a corner.
It was funny.. Dave and his wife met us at the bus station in Leicester England and we wheeled the steel over to the nearest pub..ordered a beer and set up the steel!
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Doug Rolfe
From:
Indianapolis, IN
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 8:08 am
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Kevin, Randy told me that no one who took a stab at it, got it right. Not everyone on the forum tried to figure it out. I was just simply amazed when Randy told me that no one got it.
I will be the first to admit that there can differences between steels/equipment in some cases, it's just that when you have similar equipment it can be difficult to detect subtlies and I think Randy's test is a good example of that. As Jim has said, tone is subjective and is in the ear of the beholder. I just don't accept the premise that someone can tell a p/p from all others when they hear it.
I also have a confession to make. I first heard a p/p when a dear friend of mine, who is an exellent player, played p/p for years and even though he was a super picker, I was never totally taken away by the tone. It was OK but not great. He has since changed brands and I personally like his sound/tone better. I can't put my finger on it, but think it may be in the highs being too piercing for me. I have also heard other steels that I thought the highs were too shrill. Just an observation. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 8:10 am
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
Bent,
after having heard the 'gospel medley' I'll have to credit you for having built a really, really, good sounding steel.
(The first clip didn't tell my ears anything about the steel, as there was too much "masking" in the sound chain ) |
Georg, Thanks. It means a lot to hear it from a "sound perfectionist."
I agree with you about the effects in the first one. But remember, Dave was just getting used to it here..he's had it for a total of 5 days when he posted the 1st one. Plus, the effects pedal was new.
He made the power amp himself, a very sweet sounding one I might add. The tone will be adjusted..as you detected, he'd tweaked it on the second song.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 4:33 pm
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Hi Bent,
the steel sounds good...it sounds alot like a Fulawka and sho-bud to my ears, once again my friend you did a beautifull job with that steel  , i just started on my next steel project...i'm building a 1 and a half body with just natural hard maple, it's gonna be a kinda semi-pro steel for that one, didn't get my birds eyed maple yet for the other one, it's more fun to build them then play'em  , anyway it's nice to hear from you and i will try to get pictures up as i go .
Pat C.
_________________
Comeau SD10 4x5, Comeau S10 3x5, Peavey Session 500,Fender Telecaster,Fender Stratocaster, Fender Precision,1978 Ovation Viper electric. Alvarez 4 strings Violin electric.
Click the links to listen to my Comeau's Pedal Steel Guitars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIYiaomZx3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2GhZTN_yXI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvDTw2zNriI |
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