6th string split and major scale figures

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

Well, I think I've finally found an indispensable use for the half-tone lower with the 6th string split.

While trying to work up some major scale figures ala Bill Keith and his moelodic banjo style, and at the prompting of Larry Behm's excellent video "Picking Your Pockets", I came across a set of positions on strings 8, 7, 6 that rely on the use of the 6th string split. In fact, I don't see how I could do this so easily without the split--its the one reason that any new guitar I'd buy would have to have this half-tone lower .

By way of explanation, in the key of G:

at Fret 3 with no pedals on strings 8 7 6 are notes G, A, B.
Then at fret 5 with the split engaged are notes A, B, C.
then at fret 6 with E-raise are notes B, C, D.
at fret 8 no pedals, notes C, D, E.
fret 10, no pedals, D, E, F#.
Fret 12 with split, E, F#, G.
and finally at fret 13 with E-raise, notes F#, G, A.

So you have little 3 note clusters of ascending scale tones--each starting one note higher than the previous cluster--spread out across the key. Using forward, backward, and other repeating finger patterns, its easy to make endless ascending and descending "loops and figures" through the major scale by playing a repeating finger pattern while sliding into and out of these scale positions. This was a big eye-opener for me and brings improvising into reach. The possibilities with just a few different patterns are huge.

I studied banjo a little with Bill Keith and always wanted to transfer those "loops and figures" as he calls them onto the steel. I had been trying to work them up on a single fret with no joy, but These positions make it possible with very little difficulty. I guess that's why I'm so excited about finding this set of positions.

Another thing I picked up from Bill is the concept of the Tetrachord. I like the way these positions lay out in tetrachord form. Starting at the open root position of the key, its no pedals, then up two frets with the split, then up one fret with E-raise lever, then up two frets with no pedals. That pattern is repeated again two frets up at the V position of the key, so you only have to remember the 4-position pattern and repeat it--just like with the major scale.

Finally, if you "shift" the starting finger of a pattern, (like start a forward roll pattern with the middle finger instead of the thumb), it creates a completely different sound although the basic pattern remains unchanged--there's lots of variations on some basic moves.

I hope I've made some sense here--its hard to put into words.

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

Hi Phil,

Looks like its just you and me. Surprised

Wanted to say that this set of positions works so well for playing scale "loops and figures" because they essentially comprise the "3rd up" harmonized major scale with a scale tone inbetween each harmonized interval. That gives you a 3-note segment of the major scale at each position, each segment starting one tone higher in the scale.

This same sort of thing, where 3 or more adjacent scale tones appear in clusters at regular position intervals also occurs on strings 5, 4, and 2, using the A pedal, 2nd string half-lower and E-raise lever. You can run the same figures on that grip. Actually, you get a run of 4 adjacent scale tones at each position when you add in string 1.

Its basically the same harmonized scale you play on grip 5 & 4, but adding in the scale tone on string 2--that makes it a consequtive segment of 3 scale tones at each position. Just as with the positions on grip 8 7 6, you need to be able to flat and/or sharp one or more of the strings at certain positions to stay in the major scale--the 2nd string half lower and 4th string raise makethat possible.

And, as with the 8 7 6 positions, There is a repeating tetrachord pattern. It starts with the "A&F" position, then up two frets with A pedal only, then up two frets with A pedal and 2nd half lower, then up one fret with A&F again. Those are the "DO, RE, ME, FA" positions, and they repeat two frets up from where you left off to complete the scale with "SOL, LA, TE, and DO.

I don't know Phil, I think this is fairly useful and interesting stuff. Just be careful you don't stray into "Hankyisms". Shocked

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Thanks, Phil. Great explanation.

And a special thanks to you too, Phil. You two guys should probably meet at some point. Winking

Marc Jenkins · From: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

Thanks Phils, this is very interesting stuff!

Danny Bates · From: Fresno, CA. USA

Great info here. Thanks for the thread.

BTW, I hate it when parents give twins the same name! Laughing

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

Phil, I had just gotten a couple bell cranks to try another change I didn't have. After I read your thread on this subject, I went ahead and installed the 6th String Split Lower. What a great change. I knew I hearing these runs being played, I was trying to do them using pedals. How much easier is this. Thanks for posting this info...

Would you mind if I tabbed this info out for other and post it in the tab section in the near future?

Danny Bates · From: Fresno, CA. USA

Phil, you probably already know this but I thought I might mention this for others.

Modally speaking, as you play your G scale here, you can think of it also as a C Lydian scale. Of course you must emphasize the C note which is handy because it's on the 8th fret of this scale. In other words, you just utilize the same exact pattern from the 8th fret.... and think "C"

This Lydian scale is used a lot in jazz improvisation when a major chord appears "out of the scale" you're playing in. Many use it instead of the major scale because it is raising the 4th tone which can be dissonant. BTW, a sharp 4 is also an augmented 11th (a very pretty sound) and it's also a flat 5, which can create a "bluesy" sound.

When you said this (edited):

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

Real glad to see this stuff is interesting to someone else besides myself. Hey Dick, as far as tabbing, be my guest. And Danny, all I can say is Bingo! I guess That's why they call it the MAJOR scale.

I'd just like to point out, if you haven't already noticed, that there are basically 3 grips that support these "loops and figures" type scale runs.

The first is grip 8 7 6, and needs a somewhat less than standard change (the 6th string split). But, there are two other grips that just need the A pedal along with an E-raise lever and a half-tone lower on string 2--all fairly standard changes.

grip 5, 2, 4 at fret 6 with A&F gives notes G, A, and B, and kicks off the first tetrachord for key of G as the other Phil laid out in the second post above.

The 3rd grip I noticed is 2, 4, 1. You get the G, A, B sequence at fret 5 with A pedal and 2nd string half lower. How can I say this -- you use the same bar and lever patterns as those for the 5, 2, 4 grip, but the loops start at a slightly different place.

So in summary, 3 grips, two tetrachord patterns as:

grip 8 7 6
3rd fret open (G A B)
5th fret with 6th string split (A B C)
6th fret with E-raise lever (B C D)
8th fret open (C D E)

Grip 5 2 4
6th fret with A&F (G A B)
8th fret with A pedal (A B C)
10th fret with A pedal and 2nd half-lower (B C D)
11th fret with A&F (C D E)

grip 2 4 1
5th fret with A and 2nd half-lower (G A B)
6th with A&F (A B C)
8th fret with A pedal (B C D)
10th fret with A and 2nd half-lower (C D E)

I notice that this grip (2 4 1) uses the same tetrachord pattern as grip 5 2 4, it just starts one position back. So, there's not another tetrachord to memorize--just the two.

I'm trying out different ways of "joining" these grips and their patterns to get freedom of movement throughout all these positions. DO, RE, Me, FA --What a beautiful thing.

Its really quite a little ball of string if you know what I mean.

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

Phil, I posted a tab in the tab section. But I'm not sure I got it quite right. Mind having a look.

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

Henry Brooks · From: Los Gatos, California, USA

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

Henry,

These are just alternate positions for major scale tones. They come in handy for playing melodic runs.

Of course, you can find other ways to play the same notes. I just happen to like the way they stack up 3 per fret--appeals to my pattern-recognizing brain. Also, they lend themselves to a certain way of playing melodic "loops & figures"--especially at higher tempos. The only real limitation on their use is your imagination.

Disclaimer: I make no warranty on the manure I've been spreadin' round here--except to say that these notes do exist at these locations with these pedal shapes.

Muttering

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

Phil, Henry is right, it's right there on the 3rd open using the B pedal.

But, I like you, find the little diddys that "roll off" and are in recognizable shapes and patterns very useful to an old slow thinking guy like myself. I also recognize that I can and will change my steel setup in a heart beat to try something new, different or easier on myself in the heat of battle on stage. And that, some will not or can not do the same. I think, that if a run rolls off easily, you will use it. Is the 6th string lower, a lick oriented change. Maybe. Is the 5th string lower a lick oriented change. Maybe. Do you need them to play great steel. Absolutely not. Are they fun to explore, damn right! It's the journey that I love...

Phil, I really like your disclaimer and hope you don't mind me using it: I make no warranty on the manure I've been spreadin' round here. But it's free. Laughing

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

Yes, Henry is right. As I said, They're just alternate locations of those 7 notes that make up the major scale. I like to find multiple ways to play the same notes, because the right hand and left foot are limited in their movements and different note stacks lend themselves to different runs according to the body's ability to make the needed moves.

One of the criteria for licks and runs that I hang onto is that they be physically easy to pull off. Knowing several ways to get the same notes is one way I've found to make playing easier.

I try to use both the 5th and 6th string splits sparingly, because I know the day'll come when I sit down at someone's guitar and they won't have them. And, I don't want to be locked into a specific setup--unable to play what I want because there isn't a split on the guitar.

But, I do have them, and There are certain moves and/or chords that are made possible by them that I really like. for example:

Bar slants are tough for me. A nice 9th chord that I've come across, and which is written as using a bar slant is a cinch with the 6th string split.

C9 chord on grip 4 5 6 with A pedal, and slanting the bar with tip at fret 10 and base at fret 8.

or,

C9 at fret 9 with A&F and 6th string split.

on my Carter that's A, B, LKL & RKL.

Both moves make the note stack E, Bb, D, for a C9 chord, but the split makes it alot easier for someone like me.

BTW: I got that slant off a talk tape for "Pick me up on your way down" by Jim Loessberg. I found the split move alot easier and sounded better too.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The split you're talking about is the same as a knee lever that lowers G# to G, right? I have that on a pedal, and I often use it in the same positions that you describe (ii and vi).

And yes, it's true that this can be done with B+C two frets lower, but I've always found bar movement to be more expressive than pushing pedaqls. It's nice to have the option - pedals for fast music and bar slides for slow music.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video

John Polstra · From: Lopez Island, WA, USA

Pardon the beginner question, Phil, but is the lower you're describing on the 6th string really a split? It seems like just a plain old lower to me. I thought a split involved activating both a raise and a lower on the same string and getting an in-between note as a result. Have I got that wrong?

Thanks,
John

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

B0B and John,

the split I'm talking about came standard on my 3X5 Carter S10. The net effect is to lower the 6th string a half-tone G# to G, but it's a true split in that it raises a half tone with the B pedal and lowers a full tone with RKL--whole lower Plus Half raise = half lower.

I don't see how you can get the same note stack 2 frets lower with B&C pedals as Henry and B0B have said. I'm saying grip 8 7 6 gives notes A, B, C at fret 5 with 6th string split. I'm sure there's some oversight here--not talking about the Am chord--just the notes A, B, C on adjacent strings.

See, B0B uses these positions too --I'm not nuts! Smile

John Polstra · From: Lopez Island, WA, USA

Ah, I get it now. So you get a whole-step lower, a half-step lower, and a half-step raise all on the same string. Slick! I've been thinking for awhile that a whole-step lower on string 6 would be useful, and I like what you've described with the half-step lower. Too bad -- I don't know that my PSG (Sierra Crown series) supports tunable splits. Oh, well, what I have is keeping me plenty busy already. Thanks for the explanation, Phil.

John

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The Sierra Crown didn't originally include tunable splits, but Don Christensen came up with a little gadget you could clamp onto the changer that added the feature after the fact. Maybe you can still get them from Sierra.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video

Steve Norman · From: Seattle Washington, USA

ahhh so you have Aped down with the split then move up a fret release the lower and raise the e for the A/F position?
_________________
GFI D10, Fender Steel King, Hilton Vpedal,BoBro, National D dobro, Marrs RGS

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=166543

Barry Hyman · From: upstate New York, USA

This intrigued me and kept me awake the other night, because I don't have the sixth string lower or split, but I figured out a way to do it while lying in bed, and sure enough it works.

You can play the first three notes of a G major scale (G, A, and B) on the second, fourth, and fifth strings (in that order) at the fifth fret with the second string lowered one fret. One fret higher you get the notes A, B, and C on the same three strings with the fourth string raised one fret ("F" lever). B, C, and D are on the same strings with no pedals or knees at the eighth fret. C, D, and E are at the tenth fret with the second string lowered again, and D, E, and F# are at the 12th fret with the same pull. At the 13th fret I switch back to raising the fourth string and get E, F#, and G, and at the 15th fret I need no pulls to get F#, G, and A. Then it starts to repeat an octave higher.

And of course it works in any key, and for minor, dorian, mixolydian, and all the modes also just by starting the pattern in the right place at the right fret. Cool stuff, thanks for getting me to think like that...
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

Hi Barry,

I think that you meant to say strings 2, 4, 1 instead of strings 2, 4, 5. However, strings 5, 2,4 in that order will also give you the scale tones G A B at the 6th fret with A pedal and e-raise lever. Then its off to the races with the same pattern as you mentioned except that you include the 5th string with A pedal always pressed.

G A B at fret 6 with A&F
A, B, C at fret 8 with A pedal only
B, C, D at fret 10 with A pedal and 2nd string half lower
C, D, E at fret 11 with A&F.

Then, up two frets and repeat that pattern for the second half of the scale D thru G. Knowing these little scale segments will reveal the entire major scale throughout the octave. So, next time you make that old G major chord at fret 6 with A&F, you'll now know the notes of the G major scale at that position--G A B C on grip 5 2 4 1. Same for all the positions you mentioned.

I wrote all this out in the second post of this thread.

Careful, this stuff will definitely keep you up at nights and get you honked at at intersections.
Smile

.
_________________
Disclaimer! I make no warranty on the manure I've been spreadin' around here.

Barry Hyman · From: upstate New York, USA

Yes, Phil, you are right. I meant strings 2, 4, and 1. Sorry. (Strings have numbers, frets have numbers, the notes of the scale have numbers, the chords of the chord scale have numbers, the intervals have numbers -- which differ if you are talking fret intervals or steps-of-the-scale-intervals -- and I also think in terms of my first finger, second finger, etc. Easy to get fried with this stuff...)

But then I went on and figured out a way to do the same thing with strings 8, 7, and 6 even though I don't have the sixth string lower (I have the seventh string raise) and then I realized I can do the same thing with strings 4, 2, and 3! And I found a way to do the four-note groups as well that somebody here was talking about -- G, A, B, and C at a certain fret, then A, B, C, and D a little further up the neck, etc. Fun stuff, Phil -- thanks again for stimulating my already over-stimulated brain!
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

Hi Barry,

yeah, it's easy to get a little headspinning goin' on when trying to work all this out in your head. I've been finding that there's a big difference between what works on paper (or in your head), and what works in a practical sense when seated at the guitar. So, I still like to spin out all kinds of ideas, but if I can find only 10% of the stuff I figure out mentally that also works well on the guitar, I figure I'm ahead of the game. Like you say, it's alot of stuff to remember--I try to whinny it all down to "what works" and is easy to play too.
_________________
Disclaimer! I make no warranty on the manure I've been spreadin' around here.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic