A problem on my Emmons! (But it's fixed - thanks, y'all!)

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Here I am only three weeks from completing my 96-show run here in North Dakota, and my LG111 is misbehaving!

For the last three nights my LKL (it lowers both Es) has needed tweaking - after playing for a short while, it won't drop EITHER string (4th or 8th) down to the D#; it lets me tune it down to the proper pitch, but before I know it, it's slipped back again...

What can be happening? I haven't looked underneath yet - it'd be pointless, because I doubt I could figure it out on my own - but I'd really appreciate a suggestion or two. I'm managing to substitute my second string in place of my lowered 4th, but the 8th is a real nuisance.

I can't imagine why both strings are affected. So far, as I said, it's allowing me to correct it but it won't stay tuned, and now the nylon tuner's getting a bit tighter.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts....
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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richard burton · From: Britain

Are you still getting the full movement of the lever ?
Maybe the stop for the lever has come loose, and your losing travel.

You say that the nylon tuners are getting tight, you may have the whole thing over-tightened.

Back both the raise and lower nylons right off on the 4th and 8th strings, and try tuning again

Leri Schiller · From: Belton, Texas

I once had a problem lowering my E's and would readjust the nylon nuts.
After close inspection I found that the lever assembly that mounts to the body of the guitar was loose.
The screws were backing out. Changing to sheet metal screws resolved the problem. And, yes it affected strings 4 and 8.
That was on a LeGrande II, however, I lower my E's on LKR. Hope this helps. Good Luck.
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1991 Emmons Lashley LeGrande II, D-10, 8x6/Session 400/RV3

Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

have you lost any ball ends off the strings that me be in there causing you some trouble? or like said above back off the nylon tuners start over again, sometimes we all will turn those nylon too far in and cause alot of problems going to far into the changer. I cant think of a stop doing that but yes its possible one needs to look at all areas thats just good trouble shooting technics.I did small adjustment on my A pedal once that caused more trouble you can shake a stick at took me a long time to think (what did I do before this trouble started) 5th coming back sharp. well it was the adjustment I made all along.
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvuH7H8BajODaL_wy3_HSJQ

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Roger, if it were only one string I would bet a bellcrank is cracked at the bend next to the cross shaft but it is so unlikely for both to be cracked but I would still look them over carefully. I guess it is possible. Otherwise, like mentioned above, I would back the nylon tuners completely off and retune them. The left moving knees are the direct and simple so there can't be a major problem. Also, if it is still not right after clearing the above mentioned possibilities, check the lower return springs making sure they are returning all the way. If it was the springs though, the open string would be floating and not always returning to correct E pitch. Call me at (479) 806-5330 when you can be at your guitar if you don't get it working and I will try to help you pinpoint the problem. Another unlikely possibility is that the split tuners may be causing problems. Since you are not using them on 4 and 8 I would back them out a couple turns. They are the allen screws in the end of the changer body. I don't see how they could be moving but they may be adjusted "right on the edge".
Jerry

Boo Bernstein · From: Los Angeles, CA

Hi, Roger --

I was touring Europe in 2006 and I had the exact same problem on my LeGrande III.

I lower my E's to Eb on my RKR. There is one small rod that goes from the knee lever to the bellbrank on the crossbar that operates both strings 4 and 8. (The rod actually pushes that bellcrank). If you're using any lever that goes to the right (like the Emmons set-up), the connection would be the same.

It was the bellcrank on the crossbar that was broken -- not the bellcranks for the individual strings. I kept looking at the bellcranks but couldn't see any crack -- it was not visible to my eye until the whole thing finally broke during one show. I replaced that bellcrank (luckily I had a spare) and everything was solved.

Hopefully, this will help you with your problem. While I got a great lesson in using the 2nd string, I really missed that change during one very big concert!

Good luck, Boo

Boo Bernstein · From: Los Angeles, CA

Opps, I just re-read your post and saw that you have this on LKL -- so my advice is not applicable. Sorry! Boo

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Boo, the problem you describe has happened to me and is a somewhat common problem because all the strain of the whole set of changes is on that one bellcrank, however, Roger stated the problem is LKL so I assume he is using the Day setup. Levers moving to the left are mounted directly on the cross shaft.
Jerry

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

You guys are great!! Many thanks....

Yes, Jerry - I am, of course, playing 'Day' set-up.

I'm printing off this thread and I'll take it with me to the theatre tonight and get to work.

It's pretty frustrating, because I have a number of diminished chords to play, as well as a lot of minor7b5s, too - I'm having to think hard to get the latter without dropping the 4th (even though there are a number of other Diminished options...)

I do have a split-tune on the 4th string (working with my C pedal) but that's one I can easily lose.

Thanks, too, for jumping on this so quickly. That broken bell-crank suggestion has me thinking - I seem to recall I had that once before, but it's all lost in the mists of time!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

now roger....don't ever ask a question like this again without looking underneath first...

Glenn Suchan · From: Austin, Texas

Roger,

After you get your Emmons all straightened out, it might seem, you could use a jar of Marmite to soothe your worries. Let me know if you want any, I think I can get my hands on a jar or two, right here in the "heart of Texas". Very Happy

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Jim Hankins · From: Yuba City, California, USA

I just had a similar problem, same lever, had to keep tweeking the tuners to get the EEs to lower enough, and I saw the screw holding the bracket to the body is pulling out. Problem is you have to disassemble the knee lever to get to that screw, but I wont digress...

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Chris...

Just ask Jerry Hayes (of Virginia Beach, VA) how much use it'd be me looking underneath!!! I had my LG111 upside-down at a theatre trying in vain to see why my E-F lever wouldn't return to pitch - Jerry looked at it for about four seconds (he'd rushed across the road at my desperate cry for help) and spotted that the rod had somehow relocated itself on the wrong side of a neighbouring bell-crank, and was being impeded in its travel.

See? I was staring at it for 45 minutes and didn't see a thing!

Glenn: It's much appreciated but, thanks to Basil Henriques great kindness, I have a massive supply of that vital and life-supporting substance.

I'll report on what I can find tomorrow.

Thanks again, guys.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

hah..that's ok rog....nice to have emergency road service so close at hand!

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Well... I FIXED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's all due to you guys, of course, but I'm feeling a disproportionate amount of pride at having actually done it myself.

Here's what had happened (and it sounds as though, even though this was my LKL, my guitar is like Boo's). There's a kind-of 'slave' cross-rod that connects to the main LKL cross-rod via a very short rod using two bell-cranks. The second of these BCs was just about to break clean off at its weakest point. When I tried an hour or so ago to retune (after winding all four nylons off - Es to F and Es to Eb) it did no good - in fact it would no longer get down the the Eb! When I flipped the guitar over, I saw that the main cross-rod was lying at almost 45 degrees and the culprit was that connecting bell-crank on the slave cross-rod - it was almost severed.

I got it off (after destroying the C clip! - I HATE those things, and they're the only thing I detest in an Emmons!), then 'robbed' my least-used C6th pull of its bell-crank (that was lowering the 5th to an F - believe me when I say that the World will not be a different place tonight just because I no longer have that 'pull'!) and, finally, got it fitted on.

I'm still nervous about that C-clip holding; I had one new one in my seat, and I fear that it went on too easily - if everything collapses under pressure tonight I'll know what's happened.

Thanks again to everyone - I feel I've learned at least a little something today!

PS: What tool should I acquire to remove and refit those pesky C-clips? It's too much to expect that I won't be doing this again one day....
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I'm thinking about this little set-back, and I'm wondering if that bell-crank would be more long-lasting if it were one of the older four-hole cranks.

Any thoughts? They seem to have more substance to them - that one does take a lot of strain, I'd say.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

HAHA, those damn C-clips!

when I was a lad, my grandpa told me they were called Christ Clips, or Jesus Clips.

Because when you try to take one on/off and they fly across the room, you say "JESUS" or "CHRIST!!!"

heh

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Roger, they make special pliers for those C-clips in different sizes... Snap Ring Pliers. I bought one a while ago, the smallest of the bunch, and I still had to gently grind the points of the tips to fit in the tiny C clips for the steel.
Once while stuck, I also recall using a bunched-up paper clip, which actually worked better than the pliers.
- John

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Roger, we gotta make sure we are talking about the same clip. You asked if a 4 hole bellcrank might be stonger (which it isn't by the way), this leads me to think you are referring to an "E" clip which is used on a 14 hole bellcrank and except for a few special locations the LeGrande III uses 14 hole bellcranks, so the "C" clip tool does not work for that. If you are referring to the 14 hole crank, you need a small supply of the "E" clips which I would be glad to send you if you want to email me your mailing address at rollermusic@cox.net Clem Schmidt had a great tool on eBay but I don't see it on there any longer however there are some "E" clip tools on eBay.
Jerry

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Jerry

My guitar has almost all 14-hole bellcranks - the exception seems to be a couple of four-hole ones on the Counterforce. I may well have wrongly described the 'E' clips as 'C' clips - I didn't realise they were two different things.

I just think that there's way too much load being put on that one little bell-crank on my LKL; it's being asked to turn the cross-shaft, not directly - as with most pulls, but via that one short cross-shaft that is connected to the main one by means of a one inch long rod (the rod is carried between two 14-hole BCs).

I don't know if I'm explaining all this very well - I just think that in this case a solid bell crank would be less likely to fracture. I know there's no such thing for an Emmons, but I don't think this is particularly sound engineering practice.

I'm now out of clips (Es, I guess) and I'm short a bell-crank on C6th. I'll email you...
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Bob Adams · From: Scotland, UK

Don't see the tools on ebay at the moment but I trawled back and this was my source>..

username on ebay is sauce4050 currently selling Steel DVDs.

contact is

freedomsauce@bellsouth.net

It may be worth an email, the tool certainly does the biz! hope you have success.

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Roger, I sent you an email concerning a bellcrank and "E" clips. You are correct, that bellcrank is doing about all it can be expected to do but I have only broken one and I have several LeGrande's. Come to think of it, the last LeGrande II I got in for a customer had a new type machined bellcranks so I would think Emmons is offering a stronger crank now.
One thing you might do is to check the lower return springs on your guitar and see if you can get by with less tension on them. Back them off a couple of threads and the pressure on that bellcrank will be lessened.
Jerry

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

If I back off the spring, or lessen the tension, which way am I turning the screw - anti-clockwise?

Thanks - I'll try that tomorrow if you get a chance to reply.

By the way - the guitar performed flawlessly tonight (not sure if I did, but I tried Very Happy

); how great it was to have that E 'lower' back again!!!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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