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Topic: Ever notice there are no BAD pedal steels? |
James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 20 Aug 2009 11:34 am |
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......that pro level pedal steels from every manufacturer are hit with nothing but compliments on this forum?
It seems that every new pedal steel posted on this forum gets invariably positive reviews on every important aspect of the sound and playability. The Carter Starter and the Maverick are the only exceptions that I can think of, but that's why I specified "pro" in my opening sentence. Actually, I did read a recent Paul Franklin post where he said his Sho-Bud didn't have great sustain up the neck. That struck me as refreshing.
Surely they are not all created equal. I surf a lot of forums and this phenomenon seems to be unique to the SGF "pedal steel" section. Is it because we know that the builders are also surfing the same forum and we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and/or business? Or is it because they all ARE great, being that pedal steels are almost universally hand-made instruments?
Last edited by James Mayer on 20 Aug 2009 1:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2009 11:39 am
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because we know that the builders are also surfing the same forum and we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and/or business
you hit the nail on the head with that !!!
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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Jeff Evans
From:
Cowtown and The Bill Cox Outfit
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Posted 20 Aug 2009 1:25 pm Suzy Sunshine Ethos
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Very interesting subject . . . cloaked in a terribly ambiguous title.
The steel guitar world is a small one — 30,000 players on the planet is an estimate that keeps cropping up. Lots of folks are nice, they know each other, and few want extra enemies.
A described but unnamed phenomenon I'll label The Musicians' Code of Silence — say nothing lest words be held against you — is at work, and it extends beyond the makes-and-models subject. Too bad, as it limits how interesting and utilitarian the Forum could be.
Some, perhaps many, people aren't kosher with the academic style, back-and-forth of ideas. For them, disagreement is inherently disagreeable — it's either happy, backslapping conformity or daggers at dawn.
Finally, there likely is a lot to compliment about these makes. Everything out there now must be pretty advanced relative to the tablespoon-and-coat hanger contraptions of over a half century ago. (We may have lost that glorious tablespoon tone, though.)
Here's the passage to which I referred above:
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If you haven't depended on performing music for your livelihood, you really don't have a full realization what must be done... or not done... to achieve any level of continued success. You don't have the freedom to publicly say "so-and-so destroyed country music," or "he really sucks," or "I don't like the way that guy produces records," or "I'll NEVER play the sh!t that guy makes" as many people on here do. Maybe late at night with only a few close friends, but never on a public forum or in front of strangers. You never know when somebody's friend, or band member/mate, whatever, is reading and/or eavesdropping.
You may have heard the expression "he played his way into that gig... and talked his way out of it." That's what happens. — http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=162699&start=25 |
Last edited by Jeff Evans on 20 Aug 2009 2:15 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2009 1:29 pm
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All steel guitars are the same. The tone depends on what brand of strings you use, the cost of the volume pedal, and the kind of bar.  |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 20 Aug 2009 1:32 pm
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Jeff, well said.
I happen to read product reviews looking for the flaws. Everything has a flaw and a compromise, a strength and a weakness. You can only hope to find the product which limitations don't affect your primary goals. If a review doesn't contain any sort of downside, I suspect the reviewer is in cahoots. A helpful review looks something like "man, this thing sounds incredible, but it's heavy and the fretboard is a bit hard to see under certain circumstances".
I'll fix the thread title. |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2009 1:46 pm
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James
maybe a thread asking us to tell the things we "don't like" about our guitars ???
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2009 1:56 pm
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My first pedal steel was a Fender which Doc Martin installed two plungers in the keyhead to get the Bud Isaacs lick. From then on it was home made guitars for me from 1958 to 1981 when I got my first BMI D10. We are all so spoiled with what we have today regardless of which brand it is. The ones I had to play had screen door no-sags, gate hinges, cables and pulleys from Ford windshield wipers, homemade fretboards and many other pieces of hardware. All this on some very pretty birdseye maple.
Jerry |
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Joe Smith
From:
Charlotte, NC, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2009 2:05 pm
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Well, I never had a bad one, but I've had some that just were good.  |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Aug 2009 2:08 pm Re: Ever notice there are no BAD pedal steels?
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| James Mayer wrote: |
| ......that pro level pedal steels from every manufacturer are hit with nothing but compliments on this forum? |
That's what is known as a "hasty generalization"...a false conclusion.
If you read enough here, you'll find occasional comments about most every brand's shortcomings. Lord knows, I do my share!) But sycophants do abound. Like you said, no model is perfect, and they're not all equal. All are, however, quite "acceptable". Keep in mind, James, that none of them will keep you from being a star, but none of them will make you a star, either.
No one talks about DaVinci's brushes or Babe's bats. (Because that's not where the talent was.) |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 20 Aug 2009 2:20 pm Re: Ever notice there are no BAD pedal steels?
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
That's what is known as a "hasty generalization"...a false conclusion.
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99% positive, 1% negative. Better? Theories are born on less conclusive evidence.
I agree with your stardom point. There is a guy on youtube who can play the **** out of a Maverick.
I would assume that they are all "acceptable" even though I haven't play any of them. Six-stringers are also all "acceptable" above a certain price point. People still talk about the neck being too thick or the pickup being muddy, etc..........regardless of price-point. |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2009 3:14 pm
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1. the builders are here. you dont poop where you eat.
2. there arent enough of these new pedal steel guitars around for us to try out and diss. we cant go into guitar center and play twenty of em, like three, hate 17 and come back and review em all like we do with guitars. by the time we get to try one, we've most likely purchased it and are telling ourselves and everyone else how smart we are for doing so.
3. the quality IS probably actually pretty good since the builders are relatively small, made in america operations run by people who take pride in thier work.
my guesses
I think its mainly number 3 tho. |
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 20 Aug 2009 4:16 pm
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I guess as always it comes down to opinion ... I can think of one currently manufactured guitar which I personally think is a pile of cheap cr*p ...but others seem to think it's the cats whiskers !! There is nothing about these guitars which make me even want to sit down to one and confirm my feelings - one way or the other.
Another instance: back about 1980 I got a brand new Sierra 12 Uni -- this guitar was so bad it was almost unplayable ...but the guy I sold it to thought it was the most wonderful guitar he had ever played ! I couldn't wait to get rid of it.
Opinions are like A..holes - everyone has got one
_________________
14'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
08'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
94' Franklin Stereo D10 9+8
Telonics, Peterson, Steelers Choice, Benado, Lexicon, Red Dirt Cases. |
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Ben Elder
From:
La Crescenta, California, USA
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2009 7:10 pm
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I think you guys have seen by now that I personally don't pull my punches and that I will say what I think, even though I often regret it later and feel the need to apologize. If I bought a bad pedal steel I would be the first to trash it all over the Forum, come what may. Why would I care if the builders are reading this? But I really do love my Williams (!!!!!), and I really did love my old MSA. The Emmons D-10 I had before that didn't have any knee levers so I was dissatisfied with it, but that wasn't Emmons' fault...
I think probably everybody who builds pedal steels nowadays tries to do a real good job. There isn't enough money in it for people to do it just for profit. But electric guitars? Don't get me started! Whammy bars? Floyd Rose should have to sit on one! Low action and narrow necks and extra-light strings? Manufactured by idiots for idiots! Artificially aged new guitars? Drop the bomb on 'em! etc. etc.
But to get back to the thread. I think Bobby Lee does a real good job of moderating here, making sure everybody is nice to one another. No harm in that. But it is also true that we all should feel free to say what we believe as long as we do it without being excessively or unnecessarily nasty. A delicate balance, one that I'm not very good at...
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Jeff Evans
From:
Cowtown and The Bill Cox Outfit
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 21 Aug 2009 1:45 am
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OK, call me Frank. Here are some honest opinions:
The pedals on my hybrid Zum are too small and sharp-edged - I can't play it without putting shoes on. There's some bar rattle at the first fret, despite gauged rollers. And at this price point, mother-of-toilet-seat fake pearl trim and decal logos just aren't right. In every other way, it's really A+. Looks, tone, playability, ease of adjustment, level of craftsmanship and finish, etc.
(I've put rubber on the pedals, the trim & decals aren't visible from behind, and I can live with pressing a bit harder on the bar at the first fret – so, no big deal!)
Let's hear your gripes! |
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Mark Durante
From:
St. Pete Beach FL
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Posted 21 Aug 2009 3:06 am
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The quality of modern pedal steels is very high compared to other instruments for a few reasons:
1. Not a lot of profit in it, so the builders are mostly doing it because it's a labor of love.
2. There are very few price points for steels, they are almost all custom shop type instruments, not mass produced.
3. And they are almost all American made, there are no cheap imports.
You don't ever here people saying Gibson or Fender or PRS etc, are bad guitars but with mass production, here and overseas, quality sometimes suffers, much more often than with modern steel makers.
I don't think it has anything to do with forumites being too shy to criticize |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2009 4:54 am
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We run into the vintage thing here too, where all old steels are automatically great, because they're old. An awful lot of of old steel players are playing Carters, Fessendens, William, GFI's etc. but the people who own the old MCI's and ZB's and Sho-buds insist the old guys secretly miss their old boat anchors... never mind that you can't tune 'em, adjust 'em or MOVE 'em.
New is better - old is better - I actually notice in the guitar world, each and every guitar is better than each and every other guitar. I can make a list of a half-dozen things "wrong" with old Stratocasters, but people still muddled through, somehow. |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 21 Aug 2009 6:49 am
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Probably the Magnum would be the only "mass produced" PSG at a professional level, since they can't be custom ordered. And lots of pros are using them and liking them.
When you have a small market, expensive instrument, and builders making a limited number, there is a lot riding on each unit. If s PSG isn't "right," it's best to get it right or eat it, because you don't dare ruin your reputation.
Or send it to Tommy Young to work his magic. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Aug 2009 7:57 am
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| Ben Jones wrote: |
| 1. the builders are here. you dont poop where you eat. |
Well, we do pay for these things. Without negative feedback, there's little incentive for improvement. I've made comments about a certain famous brand that had tuning keys that were so close, they hit each other when you turned them! Lovers of that brand (there's loads of 'em here) said "Just take out the screw and move the knob a little". DUH???  Regardless of how nice a guitar looks or sounds, stupid engineering is stupid engineering. Period. |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 21 Aug 2009 7:59 am
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Per hit on one of my gripes with most steels - sharp edges on the pedals.
Its easy enough to file and/or disc sand a radius on those edges, thats what I do.
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 21 Aug 2009 8:27 am
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1. I haven't played a modern pedal steel - one that was made in the last 30 years - that I didn't basically think was a reasonable instrument. I like certain ones more and certain others less, and I see lots of discussion about personal preferences on this forum. But I think most of us actually do agree that most modern pedal steels are well made and we appreciate what these builders do.
2. Some players do hammer manufacturers from time to time here, but a lot of it seems over issues besides the instrument itself - business policy, shipping time, and so on.
Making pedal steels is pretty much a cottage industry building specialty instruments of high quality. OK, some of the starters are a bit different, but they're mostly reasonable and (IMHO) inexpensive ways to get started. Why the blazes would we want to run these people down? Honest, non-ad-hominem, reasoned discussion about merits or demerits are totally appropriate, and I see that all the time. But I would call anything more than that biting the hand that feeds us - frankly, I think most of us need them more than they need us. I honestly doubt most builders are gettin' rich building pedal steels for us.
Edited to add - I haven't talked to everybody in this business. But of those builders that I have talked to, I found them to be genuinely decent people trying to do a good job. I think many of us feel like this. This keeps discussions like this very civil, unlike many uncivilized "guitar forums" where (IMHO) many idiots mouth off a lot of ad-hominem blather about how "My brand is great, your brand sucks." I sure as blazes don't want to see this forum go that direction.
Also, there was one modern brand - Wilcox, made by Chet Wilcox - that got a lot of bad press here several years back. Now I've never played one, but recent feedback from several players who have recent renditions is that these guitars are much improved. I think this goes against your thesis, and I think forum members will indeed give honest negative feedback. But I think most of us are pretty circumspect before doing that. I think this is good, not bad.
My opinions, as usual.
Last edited by Dave Mudgett on 21 Aug 2009 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2009 8:41 am
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I made the mistake of badmouthing Sho-Bud Mavericks once, and legions of Maverick enthusiasts jumped all over me. Lesson learned. "There are no bad steel guitars." (Yeah, right.)
There are nit-picking details that I dislike about every steel guitar I've ever owned. None are perfect, but few are actually "bad". Even if I reject a specific guitar, I wouldn't badmouth the brand because every hand-made pedal steel is different. It's more than "your mileage may vary" - the next guitar out of a particular shop could be very well suited to its owner.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 21 Aug 2009 8:47 am
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Let me add that Chet Wilcox did not describe his early instruments as "pro-level" instruments, and they were more at the starter-level in price. But even with that said, quite a number of people jumped on these back then.
Yeah, to my tastes, Mavericks need help to turn them into a serious instrument, but I've played a couple that people upgraded into something nice. But Mavericks are hardly either "modern" or "pro-level". |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2009 8:56 am
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James, There is a guy here in Portland that bought an Emmons LeGrande off E-Bay for some 2 grand-ish price, and it is claimed to be a "lemon".
So there at least one Pro instrument in our town that aint cuttin' it.
I think if you search the Forum for the word "problem" you will find tons of problems with Pro level steels of most every brand.
Ask Buddy Cage about problems with his pro level steels and stand back!
With that said, I love living in the same town as my Steel Manufacturer!
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