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Topic: Like being used?? |
Jack Francis
From:
Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
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Posted 17 May 2009 10:32 am |
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Like being used??
Last weekend my band “The Weezul Brothers”, played our second fund raiser for a biker charity…we had previously played a “Freebie” charity event for this organization...but were told that “This event has a budget”, that would allow for us to be paid….but it feel through….no $$$. But we thought, what the hell it was for a worthy cause.
Our drummer said that his niece was involved with a “High Dollar” fund raiser for the
Boys/Girls Clubs here in Phoenix…it would be an event that folks would pay $100 dollars a ticket to get into plus the money bid for high ticket cruises, etc. and we’d probably do well with our tips…since we usually make out good with our “Tip Jar” we said that we’d do it. (They raised well over $100,000.)
We did the event last night..it was around 105 degrees when we showed up and had to lug our equipment over an obstacle course quite a ways to get to the stage. We played for about 4 hours largely
being ignored by the “Washed Masses”…towards the end of the night, they came up
and decided to auction off a few more items like 3 cases of a local fancy beer that went for over $2000…the auctioneer then turned to me and asked if we’d like to donate ourselves for an event that they could add to the auction…I looked over at the tip jar with nothing in it and thought that they had just about gotten all we had left to give and told them that we were sorry but we are too busy….I don’t care for the “Washed Masses”…the “Unwashed Masses” are MUCH more appreciative.
As we were lugging all of our equipment back UP the hill that was our obstacle course at the end of the night I told the band that I was through with “Freebies”!! They agreed… they don’t care for being used either. 
_________________
DESERT ROSE D-10 8/5...Joe Naylor "SteelSeat"...
Gallien-Krueger MB200 amplifier through an Alessis MicroVerb w/15'Peavey cab.
TELES & STRATS...
FENDER TWIN & SEYMOUR DUNCAN 50W tube amps...1-12" 2-12" & 4-12" cabs and a FENDER MUSTANG-3 |
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Mat Rhodes
From:
Lexington, KY, USA
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Posted 17 May 2009 3:49 pm
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Jack, if you could put a percentage on the number of paying jobs (i.e. referrals) that freebies like these resulted in, what would it be? I know that in my situation, our band has gotten referrals from about 10-20% of the freebies we've done. That appears to be a pretty low number, but I can't help but think it might increase in the long run.
And then again, I could be deluding myself. 
Yes, you might have been used and that sucks. But you also hopefully got exposure to some "well-to-dos" who might want to hire you later for a private party, etc. |
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Alvin Blaine
From:
Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA
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Posted 17 May 2009 5:51 pm
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| Matt Rhodes wrote: |
Yes, you might have been used and that sucks. But you also hopefully got exposure to some "well-to-dos" who might want to hire you later for a private party, etc. |
For some reason that "Exposure" excuse has always bothered me. Does that happen with any other service on earth? I kind of wish that it did. I would love for Verizon to give me a month of phone service for "exposure". Or Geico to give me six months of insurance for "exposure". Maybe my mortgage company will let me out of a couple of house payments for "exposure".
All that playing "for the exposure" does, is let everyone know that you will play for nothing or next to nothing. Also don't forget that people die from "exposure"!!
_________________
http://www.oldbluesound.com/about.htm
http://www.facebook.com/cowboytwang |
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Mat Rhodes
From:
Lexington, KY, USA
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Posted 17 May 2009 7:01 pm
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Those are excellent points, Alvin, and I can attest to some of the frostbite marks that "exposure" has earned me. The question is, where do you draw the line?
I can understand an established band with regular bookings and cash flow telling an event planner "no thanks" if it doesn't feel the effort won't gain them something else. In fact, I just did that tonight with a non-profit organization and had no reservations in saying no. They wanted to dicker on 2 hours of playing time with our $300 minimum (and we're not that established)! 
But what about an upstart band with no draw potential and no reputation? What if bands like that are in huge supply in a given region like Nashville, Texas, etc? I don't know anything about Jack's band, but I doubt there's been a successful band who didn't donate a free gig once in a while and not have it pay off later. My point is, being too choosy is as harmful to a band's success as being being too accomodating. |
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Jack Francis
From:
Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
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Posted 17 May 2009 7:33 pm
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Good info guys, our bands been around for 3 years...these aren't the first freebies that we've done and probably not our last.
We have gotten a few jobs off of some other ones but...what frustrates me is the attitude that people seem to have when we play for them for nothing....as was mentioned...if you look around at these funtions...I doubt that the caterers...the party planners...flowers....tables...bartenders...security...etc. showed up out of the kindness of the hearts.
I would think that if I had a decent band donate their time....somebody could act like it was appreciated. Nobody likes to feel like their being "Used". 
www.weezulbrothers.com
_________________
DESERT ROSE D-10 8/5...Joe Naylor "SteelSeat"...
Gallien-Krueger MB200 amplifier through an Alessis MicroVerb w/15'Peavey cab.
TELES & STRATS...
FENDER TWIN & SEYMOUR DUNCAN 50W tube amps...1-12" 2-12" & 4-12" cabs and a FENDER MUSTANG-3 |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 17 May 2009 7:43 pm
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The way I look at it is that you should be doing a benefit only if you personally want to donate your services to that cause completely free. If you get some tips, or get paid a little for some expenses, or get some exposure that pays off, well that's gravy. But if you don't feel strongly enough about the cause to do it for nothing, you probably shouldn't be doing it. And obviously, you can't do complete freebies very often.
We do some low paying gigs "for exposure." Sometimes it pays off, sometimes not. But that's a business investment risk we take with open eyes. But a benefit is just that, a complete freebie you do because you want to contribute your effort to that cause. If you don't feel strong enough about the cause for that, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 17 May 2009 7:47 pm
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Here's how we do our "freebies". We will play at a charity auction, not for free, but for our usual $800 minimum fee. Then, we allow ourselves to be an auction item, with a minimum starting bid of $800. That way, we get paid $800 for playing at the charity, and the charity recovers at least that amount when we get auctioned. Yes, we eventually end up playing for free, for the person that won us at the auction, but that usually opens the door for more business when we play for their function. There have actually been times when the person didn't book us within the 12-month period following the winning bid at the auction (part of the fine print) and we didn't have to play the freebie after all!
Lee, from South Texas |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 17 May 2009 9:03 pm
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Great solution, Lee!!
Jack, I think the event planner should have tried to book a band that fit his audience better.
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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Jack Francis
From:
Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
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Posted 17 May 2009 9:11 pm
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Lee...great idea!! 
The thought of a different type of band may be a good one...but we were the "Band of choice' because of the family relationship.
_________________
DESERT ROSE D-10 8/5...Joe Naylor "SteelSeat"...
Gallien-Krueger MB200 amplifier through an Alessis MicroVerb w/15'Peavey cab.
TELES & STRATS...
FENDER TWIN & SEYMOUR DUNCAN 50W tube amps...1-12" 2-12" & 4-12" cabs and a FENDER MUSTANG-3 |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 18 May 2009 6:39 am
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| Quote: |
| I can attest to some of the frostbite marks that "exposure" has earned me. The question is, where do you draw the line? |
First time it happens, shame on you, second time it happens, shame on me, (IMO).... |
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Marc Friedland
From:
Fort Collins, CO
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Posted 18 May 2009 8:08 am
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I agree with many of the answers above.
I think the line is drawn in many different places for individuals, and I’m sure they all have valid reasons.
If you depend on earning “X” amount from music income, you probably don’t want to tie up a date during the potentially busy season for a freebie, unless like David mentions you really believe in the cause.
Some people are at the point where the “exposure” or potential of it is just reward, perhaps they practice on a regular basis whether they need to or not, and figure it’s a good chance to play in front of an audience, which they don’t often get to do. There’s certainly nothing wrong with that, but it’s definitely not where I’m at in my musical career.
I believe the amount of times an “exposure” gig actually ends up being worth it from a monetary viewpoint is such a small percentage, I feel justified in calling it ZERO!
In my definition of being worth it, the “exposure” gig would have to generate at least a handful of high-paying gigs during the off-season, and from my experience that result is EXTREMELY rare.
If it’s a small local music in the park event for a couple of hours, I’m fine with getting paid $100 each, if that’s truly all their budget allows for.
That same $100 a man is not fine when it’s a private party where there’s obviously a lot of money being spent to put the event on. If there are hundreds of people there and each one of them spent about $500 or more just in renting clothes for the evening, I insist on a much larger payday, or it just doesn’t feel good to me. I won’t play a gig where the DJ’s are getting paid $500 an hour, and all they’re offering for the entire band is $1,000 for the whole night. Anyway, that’s all for now.
Marc |
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David Collins
From:
Madison, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 18 May 2009 8:23 am
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My personal favorites are the new coffee shops, bars, rstaurants, etc. that "Are Willing To Let ME Play for free", so that I can get exposure. Yeah, right!
_________________
David Collins
www.chjoyce.com |
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Scott Shipley
From:
The Ozark Mountains
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 18 May 2009 11:08 am
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plumbers don't do work for exposure. Now the coincidence that they happen to expose themselves on a job, i.e the fabled plumber's crack..well they should compensate us for that lol. however I do charity work and NEVER do it for free. NEVER repeat NEVER if you give it away they lose all respect for you and sense of your worth.
Discounts for charity, sure but,free no way. music is a service you should be paid for it. Simple.
They pay for the food and the food, they pay for you. exposure, well those almost never get you booked.
Donation to an auction, be smart about it don't donate a full booking. Donate a discount toward a booking.
That way you're guaranteed a gig.
Musicians don't run their business like a business and this is why you see complaints like this.
take it from someone who's been doing it as a pro for 17 years in the competitive music market of Boston (i.e. high end corporate and weddings)business is business even if it's musical. This one's free I could easily charge for info like this in music biz seminars. use the info wisely and to your benefit |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 18 May 2009 12:55 pm
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| Well put, AJ. I agree. |
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Ellis Miller
From:
Cortez, Colorado, USA
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Posted 18 May 2009 1:49 pm
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I was on the recieving end of a "Benefit" put on by my fellow musicians when I was badly injured in a car accident. I am, and will always be grateful for the help and support. I play those types of benefits whenever I can if I am sure the cause is legitimate and I know where the money is going.
Charity fundraisers are a different matter. Yes, there are volunteers, but I'm guessing the caterer got paid, the Executive Director of the foundation gets paid, etc. I have done some of these venues pro bono and they are usually more trouble than they are worth. I had a bad/wierd/disrespectful situation occurr the last time I was invoved in one and, most likely, will not do another for free. There may be some value in the "exposure" but the only exposure I ever got was a call when some other charity wanted someone to perform pro bono. It seems there is more competition for the paying gigs and I have to hustle those up on my own.
In my experience, the less they pay you the less they respect you. When you work for nothing, well......
_________________
Ellis Miller
Don't believe everything you think.
http://www.ellismillermusic.com |
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Jim Peters
From:
St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 18 May 2009 2:31 pm
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Everyone in my band gets one freebie. If it's a charity I believe in, I will do it free. If it is a musician benefit for someone I know, I'll do it free. My only condition is that it be organized. I'll show up on time, do my hr set or whatever, and that's fine. I hate it when it's disorganized!
My regular gig pays about $80 a man, but it is 2 dates every month I don't have to book, and we get at least 6 or 7 casuals a year from he gig, and have built up a nice following. JP
_________________
Carter,PV,Fender |
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Billy Tonnesen
From:
R.I.P., Buena Park, California
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Posted 18 May 2009 2:41 pm
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At one time we had a little jam session at a local Elk's Club on Sunday afternoons. We would get a small crowd and they would take up a collection to pay for our gas and give us a free dinner. One Sunday afternoon they rented the whole place out to a Car Club and told them the rental included a band.
About 300 people showed up with their cars. When we said we wanted to be paid to play for this bunch the Club said that was not in their deal. We all packed up and left and that was the end of that Jam Session. |
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 18 May 2009 4:24 pm
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| Jim Peters wrote: |
Everyone in my band gets one freebie. If it's a charity I believe in, I will do it free. If it is a musician benefit for someone I know, I'll do it free. My only condition is that it be organized. I'll show up on time, do my hr set or whatever, and that's fine. I hate it when it's disorganized!
My regular gig pays about $80 a man, but it is 2 dates every month I don't have to book, and we get at least 6 or 7 casuals a year from he gig, and have built up a nice following. JP |
freebies for band members is a different thing but,
even then don't get in the hole to do a favor. let them cover your gas and of course feed you.
However, never ever work for food and beer. that makes us sound like homeless alcoholics. this is why there are so many alcoholic musician at least in part. Working for beer at every gig with a busy gig schedule at lots of bars or parties. you drink 2 to 3 or more a night just to feel you've been paid something. bingo go to your nearest AA meeting, plan for a new liver oh wait you don't get paid so no medical insurance and you might just get a DUI/DWI for your gig for beer bookings.
You don't set out to be an alcoholic but, I mean c'mon playing for beer feeds into the stereotype that we're all drugging, drinking slackers.
You should be fed and get beverages just like any other patrons or guests do included in your booking if it's a party and even if its a bar. However, I say to keep the drinking to a minimum for your own sanity and control of the situation or else they might get you drunk and 'forget' to pay you and you might not notice. Use your personal time to 'party'. my guys get one drink at the end of the night after we're packed and that's begrudgingly.we're at work like any job i believe we should be responsible. plus you should not operate heavy machinery while drinking and we play swing soooo.....get it heavy..lol and if you play pedal steel all the more heavy machinery |
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J. R. McClung
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 18 May 2009 4:52 pm
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Quote:
If you play for nothing, prepare to be treated like that's what you're worth.
Mike Reeves local AFM guy
We've found that to be true so very often.
_________________
Forget "world peace". Visualize using your turn signals. |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 18 May 2009 5:04 pm
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Our band charges an honorarium for benefits, which is about 50 per cent of our regular fee. We do about 3-5 of these a year. They help fill the calendar. (Benefits for fellow musicians are the exception, and those gigs are free.) We almost always turn down multi-band benefits. You know the ones: 8-hour marathons of mediocrity, punctuated by well-meaning but annoying relatives at the microphone, selling tickets on 10 free tanning sessions, etc.
I always explain to the person requesting the band that it's better to have 300 people pay $20 a ticket for a well-known band and have to sacrifice one-third of the take to the band, than to have an unknown band with no worth play for free and draw no bodies. They usually agree to the honorarium, and many times ask us back year after year. When they are faced with the option of raising $500 with a lesser-known free band and $3,000 with a well-known band, the honorarium quickly becomes a non-issue.
Once again, it comes down to drawing power. The more bodies a band can draw, the more negotiating power it has....even when it comes to benefits. |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 21 May 2009 12:51 pm
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| In one of the bands I play with every member gets one "freebie" gig per year. That's it. No long discussion about it. Everybody's happy 'cause it's simple and fair. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 22 May 2009 9:52 am
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There are so many bored people around here who will play for free (singles & duos) that's it's wiped out the notion that anyone should pay for live music. Bah, humbug.
(Maybe if you're wearing cowboy hats, you could wear bandanas & GUNS too, give all the rich folk something to think about....)  |
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Steve Alcott
From:
New York, New York, USA
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Posted 22 May 2009 10:05 pm
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| Right on, J.R. When you play for nothing, you're just advertising what you think you're worth. I've played for a lot of bigtime and small charities, and not one of them has ever asked me to work for nothing. |
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James Cann
From:
Phoenix, AZ
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Posted 27 May 2009 10:45 am
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| Quote: |
| . . . that "Exposure" excuse has always bothered me. Does that happen with any other service on earth? I kind of wish that it did. I would love for Verizon to give me a month of phone service for "exposure". Or Geico to give me six months of insurance for "exposure". |
Well, Alvin, did Verizon give you a free phone when you first signed up, like just about every company in the business does to 'expose' its services?
That asked, your point is well taken in the general sense. If other service providers are paid, all providers deserve it unless any specifically agrees to waive it. We can only hope that reasons to waive are worthwhile, 'exposure per se' (in the music service business, anyway) not being among them.
Besides, the only 'real exposure" is your customer telling anyone who'll listen that they got you for nothing, and that's what gets remembered, certainly not that 'We paid a price, but they were a damned good band." |
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