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Topic: two pickups on steel |
Bill R. Baker
From:
Clinton, MS USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2009 4:10 pm |
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I was browsing the Fessenden web and there is a picture of Robert Randolphs's guitar and it has two
pickups on it. Has anyone tried one of these guitars. Tell us about the two pickups. Thanks |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 5 Jul 2009 5:30 pm
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I beleive its just like a guitar set up, the further away from the bridge, the darker the tone, my old lap had 2 pick-ups also.
I cant speak for his set-up though, so i may well be wrong. More than likely he runs both at the same time for distortion gain.
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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Jack Francis
From:
Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2009 7:59 pm
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Chuck Back builds a Desert Rose Steel with 2 pick-ups..Dan Tyack has one and sounds GREAT. 
http://www.desertroseguitars.com/
_________________
DESERT ROSE D-10 8/5...Joe Naylor "SteelSeat"...
Gallien-Krueger MB200 amplifier through an Alessis MicroVerb w/15'Peavey cab.
TELES & STRATS...
FENDER TWIN & SEYMOUR DUNCAN 50W tube amps...1-12" 2-12" & 4-12" cabs and a FENDER MUSTANG-3 |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Jul 2009 8:10 pm
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I had a Franklin with (2)-P/U's in each neck for several years, back in the mid-80's to early-90's. The biggest thing I noticed about it was that the neck-p/u's got in the way of my picking, even though I set them as low as possible and didn't use them!
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<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2009 11:56 am
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It seems odd that a pickup would get in the way of picking - multiple pickups have existed on 6-strings for years (played with flatpicks, fingerpicks or a combination) and it's not usually an issue unless a plyer is digging in too hard with his right hand - or the pickup is WAY too close to the strings (killing sustain in the process).
FWIW I have had 2 pickups on two different Fenders, and one is in the process of getting a third. These guitars also have pickup switches for single or combined operation and volume and tone conrols.
multiple pickups has zero to do with distortion. A second pickup does not drive your signal like a distortion stompbox.
The point of multiple pickups is tonal variations.
In a nutshell - closer to the bridge = more treble, closer to the neck = a mellower, less biting tone. A third gives you interesting combinations that, if output is balanced and the pickups are placed at the right points under the strings (and along specific points in the wavelength pattern of the string's vibration) you get variations of what sounds like an "out of phase" Stratocaster tone without a drop in volume (which a phase switch will cause). Actually, the Strat "out of phase" sounds in switch positions 2 and 4 (or in the early days, balancing the switch in those spots) is simply the combination of the two pickups - being close together they cancel some frequencies and enhance others. Albert Lee is famous for that tone on his Albert Lee Music Man guitars.
For MOST steel players it seems multiple pickups would be useless - they want ONE good tone, period - also why there are no volume or tone controls on most steels.
But many former (or current) 6 string players feel crippled by the tonal limitations of one pickup and no controls. On one song I may want an aggressive high-midrange tone with "bite" - and on the next tune a mellow, jazz-guitar type tone.
Those are the types of things mutiple pickups provide. You can also wire most single-coils in series, giving you a huge midrange and output boost. And with humbuckers, you can add switches to change from parallel coils to series - or cutting one coil completely and turning it into a single-coil pickup.
Steelers who are not guitar players are probably (if reading this at all) completely bewildered. They'll wonder why anyone would want to "screw up" the one prototypical "steel tone" it seems most manufacturers are aiming for.
All I can say is you won't "get" it until you play around with one set up that way. At that point you might like it or hate it, but you should understand it more clearly.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 8 Jul 2009 12:12 pm
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I don't see any connection between lead-guitar p/u's and steel-guitar set-ups! Why would anyone want to compare apples to oranges, except for taste? They don't even l©©k alike!
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 8 Jul 2009 3:51 pm
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| John Bechtel wrote: |
| I don't see any connection between lead-guitar p/u's and steel-guitar set-ups! Why would anyone want to compare apples to oranges, except for taste? They don't even l©©k alike! |
They aren't apples and oranges. They both grew off the same tree. Please explain. |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 8 Jul 2009 4:31 pm
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There's a substantial difference between picking a lead-guitar and picking a steel-guitar! The wrist is held in a different position in comparison to the strings, plus normally a lead-guitar is played with a flat-pick, whereas a steel-guitar is played using a thumb-pick and two finger-picks. The angle of attack is different and thus, a p/u under the picking-hand can easily get in the way of a steel-guitar picker!
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster
Last edited by John Bechtel on 8 Jul 2009 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jack Francis
From:
Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2009 5:55 pm
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| John Bechtel wrote: |
| There's a substantial difference between picking a lead-guitar and picking a steel-guitar! The wrist is held in a different position in comparison to the strings, plus normally a lead-guitar it played with a flat-pick, whereas a steel-guitar is played using a thumb-pick and two finger-picks. The angle of attack is different and thus, a p/u under the picking-hand can easily get in the way of a steel-guitar picker! |
Funny...It doesn't seem to effect Dan Tyacks playing
_________________
DESERT ROSE D-10 8/5...Joe Naylor "SteelSeat"...
Gallien-Krueger MB200 amplifier through an Alessis MicroVerb w/15'Peavey cab.
TELES & STRATS...
FENDER TWIN & SEYMOUR DUNCAN 50W tube amps...1-12" 2-12" & 4-12" cabs and a FENDER MUSTANG-3 |
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ebb
From:
nj
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Posted 8 Jul 2009 6:00 pm
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funny it seemed to really be amazing for sneaky pete also.
check out his faux guitar solo using the neck pickup on sleepy lagoon. |
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Scott Appleton
From:
Ashland, Oregon
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Posted 8 Jul 2009 6:02 pm 2 pu's
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The Desert Rose are spaced apart so you can pick without hitting them ..
also when you play up the neck or twords the nut you would clear most
double PU set ups .. more tone more fun .. |
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ebb
From:
nj
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Posted 8 Jul 2009 6:13 pm
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i guess someone forgot to tell pete about the picking requirements
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 8 Jul 2009 6:18 pm
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To each his own! Last word: Two p/u's on my PSG did nothing for me, therefore; I only attempted to lower the neck-p/u out of the way and I never used it/them! For me it was only a waste of money and comfort! Again, to each his own!
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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ebb
From:
nj
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Posted 8 Jul 2009 6:28 pm
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speaking of 2 pickups on a franklin. pf did a great track with michael martin murphy called "from the word go" where he gets the coolest sound by using the neck position bl 705 on his franklin.
i always appreciate when a statement of fact is modified by an admittance of preference. |
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Danny Naccarato
From:
Burleson, Texas
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Posted 8 Jul 2009 8:09 pm
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| I would love to hear Junior Knight chime in here. Back when Gary Hogue and Jr were playing Mullen's, in the 80's - 90's, Gary had one with a dual p/u. I can't remember if Jr had one, but they were playing some of the same setups then so I think he did. Jim Lindsey had the same Hogue setup. I remember often seeing Gary play as well as experimenting with Jim at his house. The sound was really full...I can't describe it. BUT, there was a multi-position switch allowing you to put them out of phase, and with a little technique and fiddling around, you could create a Dobro sound by throwing them out of phase. I also remember you could modify you "tone" a lot, creating Mooney sounds, etc by different selections. It really was a great setup... |
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Jack Francis
From:
Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2009 8:10 pm
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Desert Rose Delta Blues Model
_________________
DESERT ROSE D-10 8/5...Joe Naylor "SteelSeat"...
Gallien-Krueger MB200 amplifier through an Alessis MicroVerb w/15'Peavey cab.
TELES & STRATS...
FENDER TWIN & SEYMOUR DUNCAN 50W tube amps...1-12" 2-12" & 4-12" cabs and a FENDER MUSTANG-3 |
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Jeff Agnew
From:
Dallas, TX
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 3:31 am
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| Quote: |
| I had a Franklin with (2)-P/U's in each neck for several years |
John,
May I ask what color it was? And from whom it was purchased?
Thanks! |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 5:25 am
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| Quote: |
| There's a substantial difference between picking a lead-guitar and picking a steel-guitar! The wrist is held in a different position in comparison to the strings, plus normally a lead-guitar is played with a flat-pick, whereas a steel-guitar is played using a thumb-pick and two finger-picks. The angle of attack is different and thus, a p/u under the picking-hand can easily get in the way of a steel-guitar picker! |
What is a "lead guitar"? I've never seen one.
John, it's true 6-string players most often play with a flatpick, but having spent about 35 years playing with fingerpicks and flatpicks...or both....I can say that the type of pick doesn't matter a bit as far as hitting the pickup. If you hit the pickup either 1) the pickup is too close to the strings, or 2) your picking technique has too much downwards motion, and you're "pushing" the strings instead of picking across them, or 3) your "rest" position has the picks reaching too far under the strings.
The last two make picking a very inefficient process - in the last example too much of the pick is sliding across the string before it's actually "plucked", and in the first you are slowed WAY down by picking downwards and having to lift the pick back "out" before using it again.
My angle of attack is across the string, parallel to the top, on every "picked" instrument. There's also no different wrist position, nor is the hand frozen in one place on any of them.
if hitting the pickup is a problem it indicates a technique issue that needs correction for reasons other than hitting the pickup - hitting the pickup is a symptom....not a problem by itself.
The tonal advantages gained are tremendous, and very useful unless you play (and are happy with) one tone all the time.
Pedal steel and 6-string are exactly the same in many respects - picking. basic electronics and amplification. The fact that one is not "fretted" is the important difference.
Obviously there are plenty of players using multiple pickups without a problem, as are guys playing old consoles with multiple pickups.
(edited days later to fix horrendous spelling errors!!)
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
Last edited by Jim Sliff on 12 Jul 2009 7:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Charlie Moore
From:
Deville, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 5:30 pm two pick ups
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I have Jr.Knights mullen with 2 pick ups,I did'nt like the sound so i made it a SD10 with one pick up,(put 6th neck on 9th.)it gave you a dobro type sound and a strat sound like the p/ups were out of sync.just was'nt my deal,I have the whole set up neck changer pedals rods etc., if any buyers out there..
Charlie. |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 10 Jul 2009 11:12 am
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Having been a "lead" guitar player before I took up steel I can see the advantage of having two or more pickups on a steel. However, I can't afford a new steel right now and I like my current one (BMI) so I just use a Goodrich Matchbox (the one with the tone control on top) and use it for tonal variations. I like to play some Mooney things here and there so I just turn the tone control almost a third of the way back and then I set my amp to a "normal" steel sound, then when I want Mooney tone I just turn it all the way on. I could see having another pickup like the one in that picture of the Desert Rose steel that Jack Francis posted, that'd be pretty cool, maybe I could lose my Matchbox if I had that but probably not.........JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 10 Jul 2009 12:20 pm
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Like Jerry I use (in my case) a Steeldriver II with my GFI so I have volume and tone controls - A "straight out" signal with no volume/tone circuit is completely crippled IMO. I cannot figure out how they fell out of favor and were removed from most production steels.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2009 7:48 pm
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Here are a couple of examples of the two pickups in use:
Down at the crossroads with the Desert Rose
Neck Pickup
Buck Owens on the middle position (both pickups in phase)
The additional pickup does get in the way of picking, but the added tonal dimension more than makes up for that minor ergonomic issue.
If a steel guitar were a singer, then the best way I can describe it is the bridge pickup helps you sound like Mahalia Jackson rather than Wanda Jackson.
I find it really, really hard to play without the two pickups. I'm in the process of adding a second pickup to one of my Franklins. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 11 Jul 2009 8:15 pm
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I use finger picks with whatever I play, reso, lap steel, pedal steel, acoustic or electric guitar. On electric guitar I have to pick between the pickups. This works fine for bridge and neck pups, but I can't use a middle pup. Well, actually I can get by with three narrow single coil pups, but not three big fat humbuckers.
I would like to try a neck pup on pedal steel. But it would have to go right about where the sweet spot is for picking with the richest tone. But that sweet spot is with the single bridge pup. I'm thinking, if there was a neck pup, it would be picking up the string vibrations at the sweet spot, and I might not have to pick there. The only problem is butchering the neck to insert a neck pickup. Or I could buy a whole new pedal steel that has two pickups. So it's gonna have to wait awhile.
In the meantime, with the standard single bridge pup, you can vary the tone a lot by moving your picking area between the bridge and the sweet spot (which is roughly an octave above the bar). |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 12 Jul 2009 1:41 am
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I can move my one pickup about an inch away from the bridge position, by simply lifting and reposition it. It tends to end up in the midway position for a "slightly warmer" sound, but even with that little inch of movable range the pickup rarely ever gets position all the way back from the bridge as the tone gets "too warm" there.
At the moment I'm contemplating mounting a couple of contact pickups on the neck, so I can get out more of my steel's acoustic characteristics in certain settings. Haven't decided on the right pickups for that yet.
Am also looking for good single-string coiled pickups for my steel, but those seem to be even harder to find. Anyone knows of any? |
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Paul Frank Bloomfield
From:
Greece
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Posted 12 Jul 2009 7:11 am
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Hi Guys. On this 1975 album cover, Buddy Emmons'
steel seems to have amongst other things, two
pickups at the changer end, anybody throw any light
on it ? There is something else at the nut which I
can't make out and something on the changerhead,it's
quite an intriguer !
All the best
Frank. Corfu
_________________
" The problem with doing nothing is not knowing when you've finished "
ZBSD-10,ZB D-11/10, Franlin Tele,Epiphone customised Les Paul, 'Fender pro 185 amp. |
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