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Topic: Arranging E9 vs C6 |
Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2009 4:41 am |
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i'm starting to arrange some of chet atkins' tunes that i use to play on guitar - i'm NOT trying to achieve the alternate bass deal, just get a nice arrangement of the tune - stuff like Chinatown, Jitterbug Waltz, Petite Waltz (Third Man Theme) and Bells of St. Mary's, etc - so i'm working on Petite Waltz and slowly getting it on E9, but i'm wondering from you folks who do your own arrangements of tunes like this - ie, they arent folk/country, but not jazz - how would you go about determining which tuning to use? i'm not really versed in C6 that much, and i'm finding that i've learned some new things by trying to fit these on E9, its very rewarding to hunt for that movement and find it. i've noticed some of these tunes done by others, like bobbe seymour, he uses the C6th neck, so i'm wondering if i am trying to fit square pegs in round holes here.
i've always thought E9=country/folk C6 = jazz/swing - but what about the in between stuff?
so, in summary, are there any tips that you might give when sitting down to arrange a tune that isnt country or jazz as to which tuning you will use?
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2009 7:45 am
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I think about whether I want a lot of whole-step pedal sounds in it or not. There are more of them on E9th. If you don't want many whole-step bends in your arrangement, the C6th might be the better choice.
Also, I think about range. If you want a high-pitched arrangement with overlapping scale tones in the melody, the E9th is a natural. But if you need to get down into the range of a standard guitar's 6th string, you can't do that on a the standard 10-string E9th.
Lastly, I consider the key. It seems to me that sharp keys (D, A, E, B) sound better on E9th, while flat keys (F, Bb, Eb, Ab) sound better on C6th. C and G are a toss-up.
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2009 8:14 am
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yeap, one thing i have discovered is that i need a bit more range when working on E9 - i do fine for 90% of the arrangement, then attempting correct voice leading (not jumping around), run out of tonal range and i'm like, crap, now what?, i've got to go back and fix the arrangement - i guess thats why extended E9 comes in handy. i'm attempting to keep them in the original key, thats not a big deal, but many of these chet tunes are sort of set in a certain key for guitar players.
thanks bob, thats the kind of tips i'm looking for. my C6th knowledge is so basic, what better way to learn the tuning than arranging for it.
thanks
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2009 8:30 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| Lastly, I consider the key. It seems to me that sharp keys (D, A, E, B) sound better on E9th, while flat keys (F, Bb, Eb, Ab) sound better on C6th. C and G are a toss-up. |
That's interesting, B0b. What about on an E9/B6 universal? Do the flat keys still sound better using the B6 aspect of that tuning?
John |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2009 9:12 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| Lastly, I consider the key. It seems to me that sharp keys (D, A, E, B) sound better on E9th, while flat keys (F, Bb, Eb, Ab) sound better on C6th. C and G are a toss-up. |
| John Polstra wrote: |
That's interesting, B0b. What about on an E9/B6 universal? Do the flat keys still sound better using the B6 aspect of that tuning? |
I wouldn't think so. The flat keys on E9 fall mostly at non-harmonic positions. I think that the harmonic positions have an advantage, tone-wise. (It doesn't really explain the key of C on the E9th, though.)
Some physicist might be able to prove me wrong, but it's always seemed that way to me. It might be a psychological effect, like black formica. Familiar frets sound better. I have a hard time getting chords at the 4th and 6th frets to sound in tune, for example. The tuning doesn't seem to change this fact.
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 2 Jul 2009 10:09 am
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I was going to mention the 12-string E9/B6 Universal, but didn't want to hijack the thread. But since you have brought it up, I'll jump in. The harmony called for determines whether I play in E9 mode or B6. If the harmonies are mostly pure majors and minors, I'll be in E9. This also fits with b0b's observation about whole tone pedal and lever changes. For me this includes country from the '60s forward, country-rock, Chicago blues, and a lot of rock/blues. If there is a lot of the 6th chord sound, as in '40s and early '50s country, swing, jazzy blues, and rockabilly, I'll go to the B6 mode.
I rarely use the low uni strings for country, but it turns out that the extra low strings really open up E9 for jazz. Much jazz is Dorian mode, which is a minor scale with a b7. The A pedal minor position of E9 uni is killer for this stuff. Likewise, a lot of jazz is derived from pentatonic blues, and again, the A pedal minor position is killer for that - the strings and A pedal give over two octaves of pentatonic notes, with that all important low minor root for power chords. Importantly, any minor triad is a partial M7 without the root. The movable M7 is a huge part of the jazz sound, so the A pedal minor position is a huge M7 position across all 12 strings, and is movable to boot. Even though it is considered a jazz tuning, the 6th neck M7 positions are more truncated, and so require changing frets more (or using pedals or levers) to get the different inversions.
And E9 has a lot of easily accessible diminished (F lever and 2nd string lower), augmented (F lever plus A and B pedals), M7 and other jazz chords. And on uni the low strings give you those voicings across all 12 strings at a single fret. So learning the grips and frets for those are much easier on E9 uni than on C6 or B6, where you have to go to different frets for different inversions. Likewise, for minor blues, R&B, and jazz (and Dorian jazz), the A pedal minor position reaches across all 12 strings rather than the limited minor inversions of the 6th tuning. And of course on uni the E-lower minor position IS the B6 tuning, and not truncated at the bottom as it is on 10-string E9.
The real beauty of playing a uni as one big tuning is that you don't have to think much about which neck or mode to play in. The whole B6 mode is just another position on the E9 neck (really a bunch of positions, if you consider the B6 pedals and levers); and likewise, the whole E9 mode is just another bunch of positions on the B6 neck.
I do tend to start a song in one mode or the other based on what I expect the chords to be. But I freely switch modes at any time, just to grab a chord or two, or to change the sound a little. For example, I will start a jazzy blues like Stormy Monday in B6 mode, because all those jazzy chords are right there (what's known as California blues, ala T-Bone Walker). But for one verse, or for a striking ride, I will switch to the E9 positions to get a more straight Chicago blues sound (like Elmore James would play it). Likewise, for a rockabilly number, I may start in B6 mode for that swing-country sound, but might switch briefly to E9 mode to throw in some straight rock/blues sound.
I have never noticed the key issue b0b mentions. Maybe this is because I mute pretty well behind the bar. Playing with jazz singers and horns, I find myself in flat keys a lot. I will play in E9 or B6 mode according to the harmony I need, regardless of the key. On 10-string E9 there were some keys that didn't work well for me, because of the lack of low strings. For example, for the key of D, you can't drop below the E at the nut, so you end up at the 10th fret alot, and you have to play everything high. But with the extra low strings on uni, you can get down fairly low even at the 10th fret.
Maybe I haven't directly addressed the neck or mode choices for the type of songs you mentioned (I'm not really familiar with them); but I can say a uni is a huge palette both in range and harmony, and so potentially makes such choices easier.
Last edited by David Doggett on 2 Jul 2009 10:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2009 10:27 am
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So maybe the choice based on key signature is more a matter of playing at familiar frets, rather than the tone.
If you need octave sounds, you're better off with E9th. If you need notes that are slightly different in the different octaves (maj7th, b9th, 9th, #9th intervals), you'll find them more easily on the C6th.
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