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Topic: Curious, Why nitrocellulose instead of Acrylic lacquer? |
Herman Scurlock
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
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Posted 15 Jun 2009 3:49 pm |
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I figure there has to be a good reason to use Nitrocellulose lacquer instead of acrylic when refinishing; anyone have the answer? I plan to use "Nitro" on the Bud but I'm curious why I'm using it.
Herman |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Jun 2009 4:48 pm
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| It builds up nicely, gives good "depth", and also dries pretty quickly. It's also pretty hard, which makes it tend to chip easily after it ages. Overall, it's easy to work with, though it's considered pretty hazardous if you're doing a lot of spraying. |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 15 Jun 2009 5:08 pm
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Acrylic does not breath so eventually you will get a milky haze under the finish.
It is also very difficult to touch up and uglifies as it gets older. Good quality nitro is easy to spray and ages beautifully. I HATE when I read about people spraying plastic finish on old guitars...
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Last edited by Tom Quinn on 15 Jun 2009 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 15 Jun 2009 6:40 pm
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Nitrocellulose instrument lacquer is formulated to be more elastic so it is more resistant to cracking.
This is what I used on my 2 steels that I am building.
It comes from Mohawk Finishing. It went on real nice considering the fact that I am a stark amateur when it comes to spraying. Luckily, I found a finishing expert at Mohawk and was in touch with him the day I sprayed the steels. I used one coat of vinyl sealer and then 6 coats of lacquer.I was quite happy with the results
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 6:05 am
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I don't like using this phrase because it's all but lost its objectivity. But here goes. I believe a nitro finish sounds better than an acrylic one.
I have two guitars where the original nitro finishes were in bad shape. Trust me, they were incredibly bad and a refin was what had to be done. When finished, the guitars did not sound as good as before. They had a more constricted tone.
I noticed it was mentioned that nitro has a quick drying time. Ummm...Acrylic does but the other takes a long time to dry and cure. It can take an easy 6 months for nitro to fully cure. Some would argue longer. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 6:30 am
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"Uglifies"? - Tom- you just made my morning  |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 6:36 am
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Youcan take the boy out of the country, but and etc... -L-
_________________
I need an Emmons! |
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John Allison
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 7:22 am
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| Eric Philippsen wrote: |
| I have two guitars where the original nitro finishes were in bad shape. Trust me, they were incredibly bad and a refin was what had to be done. When finished, the guitars did not sound as good as before. They had a more constricted tone. |
How finish affects tone is a really complex question and I think most answers involve some speculation. It's just not very easy to quantify the effects of different finishes on individual instruments. I use nitro lacquer exclusively on acoustic and electric guitars (and the console 8-string steels I've been developing), but some of the most widely acclaimed "boutique" acoustic guitars are finished with polyester base coats with a thin top coat of nitro for a "lacquer" finish. Then there's varnish - the new combination holy grail and magic bullet...don't get me started.
As for a refin it's easy to assume that the finish was the big factor in any change in tone, but it's just one piece of the puzzle. A PSG requires a complete disassembly and reassembly for a refinish. Any number of little things can contribute to a difference in that case...No matter how much care is taken, sanding wood can affect fit and alignment of parts. Removing and replacing parts can effect screw and bolt tension, etc. The difference between the old, brittle lacquer and the new stuff is pretty substantial, but it's just not possible to say that absolutely nothing else changed in the process.
Just my 2 cents...
J A
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John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 8:01 am
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I think that the over-tightening of wood screws would constrict the tone more than the difference between acrylic and nitro finishes.
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 8:28 am
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On a guitar, I like a relatively thin nitro finish because it tends to melt into the wood and become part of the wood, yet still protect the wood and give a smoother surface for playing, as compared to playing on bare wood. But sometimes an acrylic lacquer - like automotive acrylics - work fine too. I just don't like the thick, plastic-feeling polyester finishes like, for example, Fender used in the 70s. Like taking a shower with a raincoat on.
I'm not sure how I feel about this issue for pedal steels. I've heard some pretty durned nice guitars finished with a harder lacquer, and I generally am fine with mica guitars. Guitar and pedal steel are not the same animals.
However, I do love the look of an aged nitro finish - the old Sho Buds with nitro over beautiful birdseye maple rival old 58-60 Les Paul Standards in the looks department, to my tastes. |
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 8:50 am
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Yes, nitrocellulose lacquer looks a little bit better and feels a little bit better. But, IMO, the massive downside cannot be ignored. It's highly flammable, bad for the environment and most of all bad for ME when I'm spraying it. Let's accept that it's a thing of the past!
I have gotten very good results with Stew-Mac's and LMI's water soluble lacquers. Very hard to tell from the real thing, looks- and feelwise. It doesn't smell, it doesn't fry your brain and you can clean the spray gun under the tap.
If you want your guitar to breathe really freely, try oil & wax! The classy satin sheen you get is just as pretty as a mirror lacquer finish – just in a different way. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 9:21 am
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| Quote: |
| Let's accept that it's a thing of the past! |
Sorry, water-soluble lacquers on a 6-string just don't cut it for me. Yes, there are problems with nitro, but it is possible to deal with all them with proper spraying and ventilation technology. It costs more to get it done like this, but it is worth it to me. I have no interest in most 6-strings with anything but a properly sprayed nitro finish. |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 11:09 am
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| I should clarify my previous post. That is, the two guitars that I had refinned were 6-strings, not steel guitars. I'm so set on my opinion on nitro that I will pay more and wait longer for that finish to be applied to an instrument. |
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John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 11:22 am
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| Per Berner wrote: |
| Yes, nitrocellulose lacquer looks a little bit better and feels a little bit better. But, IMO, the massive downside cannot be ignored. It's highly flammable, bad for the environment and most of all bad for ME when I'm spraying it. Let's accept that it's a thing of the past! |
The downsides you mention are only true if the finisher is not taking proper precautions and not using proper equipment. (Don't smoke while spraying , etc.)
#2000 Carter is being finished professionally using nitrocellulose lacquer and is being finished in SANTA CRUZ, CALIFORNIA (CA is very, very stringent regarding the spraying of lacquer). Proper precautions will prevent damage to the environment and the sprayer. |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 11:37 am
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Poly, catalized whatevers, urathane, etc. are terrible finishes for wooden guitars, and not much better for furniture. It looks cheap and wears ugly.
_________________
I need an Emmons! |
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Jussi Huhtakangas
From:
Helsinki, Finland
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 11:46 am
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Anyone ever seen the documentary film about Jimmy D'Aquisto and John D'Angelico ( a wonderful film btw )? It shows Jimmy spraying a ( nitro of course )lacquer finish on a guitar without a mask of anykind using John D's original spray booth  . You can see the workshop and the booth here:
http://www.usd.edu/smm/Tours/LillibridgeGallery/DDGWorkshop.html
I guess ventilation wasn't the first thing in building world's finest guitars back then  |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 2:06 pm
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| If you are looking at an instrument, how can you tell the difference? |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 2:55 pm
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| I beg to differ. I am a builder. Lacquer is a thing of the past. It takes weeks to cure, is VERY ding prone, and starts to fade in one year. Polyurethane is a much more durable and lasting finish. Its UV resistent also. I Would never use nitro lacquer. The ZB customs used acrylic. |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 4:16 pm
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Kevin, my friend, you are wrong in soooo many ways, but my keyboard is broken and it takes forever to type.
No -- and I mean no -- hi-end guitar builder uses anything but nitro. Mid-line builders like Collings or Huss & Dalton use plastic finishes as does Taylor. Dudenbostel doesn't. Martin doesn't. Gibson doesn't on their "good" guitars.
I had a Huss and it had a horrible caltalyzed varnish finish. You cannot touch them up and they age ugly. I LOVE the look of old quality instruments, whether a Bud or a D-28.
Polyester replaced cotten briefly in the 70s for shirts and leisure suits. That's where fake stuff like poly finishes belong -- in lime-green leisure suits! :- )
_________________
I need an Emmons! |
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 4:25 pm
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One big thick coat... Yup! :- )
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I need an Emmons! |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 4:42 pm
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Pat and Tom, yes. That's the way the finsihing expert explained it to me: Spray on a wet coat. Wait an hour, Spray on coat #2 wait an hour and so on til you have 6 coats. More than 6 is a waste Those six coats, when applied in 1 hr intervals. The thinner in the lacquer softens up the previous coat so that the coats weld together to one thick, strong and flexible coat
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BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 4:47 pm
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BY the way, I understand it is the nitrocellulose that gives the finish its flexibility, therefor recommended for instruments, especially acoustic guitars.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 4:59 pm
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| Acoustic guitars are a totally different story. Cannot compare the two. I guess as a builder I don't know what I am talking about. |
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John Allison
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 5:38 pm
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| Kevin Hatton wrote: |
| Acoustic guitars are a totally different story. Cannot compare the two. I guess as a builder I don't know what I am talking about. |
As a builder, you have your opinion and you're definitely entitled to it. Some builders go with poly finishes, but I've never seen one that I thought looked good. Well applied and properly leveled and buffed lacquer simply looks better, warmer, clearer and has properties that are compatible with acoustic steel string guitars. That's just my opinion as a builder.
As for the non-instant curing time, there's simply no disadvantage in using old-fashioned nitro for a small-shop or one man operation. A week or so of cure time is sufficient and it's no problem to be working on the next one or the next while the cure is taking place. A shop that's producing 30 or 60 or 100 a week has to stack that stuff somewhere while it's curing - it's imperative to use a process that saves time. I helped develop Collings' poly-based "lacquer" finish many years ago and every single step of the way, the goal was to get the product through to the buffers in as few days as possible and still have it sound as good as nitro lacquer. I don't think any builder uses poly because of it's sound properties.
A perfect nitro lacquer finish on a nicely built steel string will never go out of style. If it does, I guess I, along with my customers will just have to continue living in the past.
Now back to actual Pedal Steel topics...
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John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com |
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