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Topic: 1954 fender |
Carl Johnson
From:
Cortez, CO, USA
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Posted 15 Jun 2009 4:52 pm |
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a friend has a fender d8 with 8 pedals they say it's in good shape. does anyone have any idea what it might be worth?
Carl |
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Willis Vanderberg
From:
Petoskey Mi
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Posted 15 Jun 2009 5:29 pm
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Carl:
For what it is worth , I don't think Fender built a pedal guitar in 54. I have a very early Fener 1000 D-8 and it is dated 1957. Is this guitar operated by cables ? If so it is no doubt a 1000 model. |
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Ben Elder
From:
La Crescenta, California, USA
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Posted 15 Jun 2009 5:36 pm
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Probably not much. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't think Fender had brought out pedal steels by then. A '54 with pedals would probably be a work of domestic engineering...and probably worth much less than its pre-mod configuration. (If it's a real Fender, it's later. This is why pictures are everything and
| Quote: |
| fender d8 with 8 pedals |
is not much to go on.)
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Carl Johnson
From:
Cortez, CO, USA
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Posted 15 Jun 2009 7:08 pm
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I'm getting my info 2nd or 3rd hand, all I can say for sure is it's a Fender with two necks and 8 strings on each neck and it has cable pulls. They are wanting a ball park idea of what it's worth. I don't know what to tell them. anyone know how they can find out?
Thanks guys, Carl |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 5:46 am
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Im not an expert but recently did some research and purchased a fender 1000 for $400, that needed about $100 work and a few man hours to get playing again.
Unfortunately these fender poedal steel guitars dont offer alot of $ on the collectors market unlike fender guitars from the same era.
They are therefor worth whatever a steel player is willing to pay for them, which frankly is not much.
$700-1000 would be my guesstimate sight unseen.
again Im no expert and there definetly ARE some fender experts here who will chime in no doubt.
If im way off base, please correct me.
pictures of it would be fun....got any? |
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Scott Dickson
From:
Steinbeck Country CA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 7:38 am
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Did anyone have experience setting one of these up? It looks like it could get complicated.
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 7:38 am
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| Quote: |
| it's a Fender with two necks and 8 strings on each neck and it has cable pulls. |
That model is a Fender 1000, made from 1957 until about 1975. Most of them had a sunburst finish, although the early ones had a natural finish. If it's in very good condition with it's original cases (there were two cases, one for the body and a smaller one for the legs and pedal rack), it's worth about $650 to $900, in my opinion. Like others have said, there is a wide range, depending on how much a buyer wants one. In general, they are not very desirable pedal steels because of the cable/pulley mechanism. If the guitar is in Mint condition, all original, no missing or changed parts, no cobbling, it might sell for over $1000. Condition is very important.
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Lloyd Burl Brown
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 7:56 am
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The first 1000s had the Fender "white" (as on teles of that period) and had the entire cast aluminum frame buffed out (very attractive but discontinued due to cost and reject rate from excessively pitted castings). The shiney frames are considerably more sought after than the much more common crinkle black painted frames.
To my knowledge there was never a polished frame sunburst produced... I believe sunburst was offered well after discontinuation of the buffed-out frames.
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Lloyd Burl Brown
Mountain View, Arkansas
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 7:58 am
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| Quote: |
| Did anyone have experience setting one of these up? It looks like it could get complicated. |
I've owned a couple of these in past years and restored the original tunings and pedal changes. I think the original tunings were A6 and E7, but I'm not sure about that. I don't have the owner's manual anymore. I do remember that the original tunings and pedal changes were "swing" oriented... there were no country sounds in those tunings! Plenty of diminished, 6th, 7th, 9th, etc. chords though. When E9 tuning became popular in the 1960s, a lot of players tuned these Fenders to D9 to avoid string breakage. Changing the pedal functions is very easy to do on these guitars.
Carter has the Fender 400 single-8 Owner's Manual posted on line ---> Fender 400 Manual
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Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 9:35 am old fender
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| The Fender 400 manual states a scale lenth of 23 inches. This is incorrect is it not? Don D |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 12:02 pm
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Early models were 24 1/2" scale. They shortened it to 23" in the early '60s.
It is the easiest guitar to do a setup change ever made. Converting from "Emmons" setup to "Day" takes about 60 seconds (with no retuning needed, either).  |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 1:36 pm
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it depends on what is meant by "setting them up".
Copedant is changed easily in minutes.
But setting one up so that it plays smoothly and properly is bit more involved, and its my guess that most of these old fenders , unless they are coming straight from someone who has already done the work, will require some "set up" work, if not outright repair to be playable.
They are such cool guitars. It is to my great shame that I dont make more time to play mine.  |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 3:04 pm
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| Quote: |
| A '54 with pedals would probably be a work of domestic engineering... |
Most of the homemade conversions were for 2 pedals, to get the Isaacs change. Therefore, a Fender D8 with 8 pedals would almost certainly be a model 1000. The date of assembly is penciled undeneath the outer neck tuning pan of my '58 1000. You might take a look under there. 1954 predates the Fender 1000. If it's in good shape a price range of $650 - $850 seems about right. As others have pointed out, not many players desire these old contraptions...but I do! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 3:09 pm
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| Quote: |
| But setting one up so that it plays smoothly and properly is bit more involved... |
Not really, IMHO. Unlike most all other pedal steels, the older model Fenders have no adjustments! You can stretch or change out the return springs, but that's it - no leverage adjustments, no timing adjustments, no pedal throw adjustments, no changer adjustments. No nothing...zip, zed, zilch.
Place the cables, snug up the turnbuckles, tune it and play it. Couldn't get much simpler or quicker.  |
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Michael Lee Allen
From:
Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 6:18 pm
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Deleted.
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Last edited by Michael Lee Allen on 26 Feb 2011 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Michael Lee Allen
From:
Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 6:20 pm
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Deleted.
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"Wisdom does not always come with age. Many times age arrives alone."
Last edited by Michael Lee Allen on 26 Feb 2011 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2009 7:55 pm
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You can also post the question and pics on the Fender Steel Forum.
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Fender_Steel_Forum/index.php
FWIW, most of the info given is correct. The earliest models are "officially" 1958 (Fender's published release date) but were made in mid to late '57. As mentioned he might find a year written under a tuner pan (which takes about 2 minutes to remove once the strings are off) but the date is pretty irrelevant when it comes to value.
Fender's pedal steels are one of the real anomalies of the vintage market, because there are folks who still play them yet they don't have the collectable value of a comparably-dated Tele, Strat...even most of the lap or console steels.
That's great for those of us who play them, though!
There are two types of D-8's - '58-'64 long scale models, with chrome pedals, rectangular Jazzmaster-like pickups, solid bar or aftermarket OEM roller bridge, bare metal or black frame, primarily blond and some later 2-color sunburst finishes and a roughly 24 1/2" scale length (I've has several and they range from 24 1/2 to 24 3/4); the second group is the 1964/8? short-scale model, with black pedals, primarily 3-color sunburst finishes, black frame, integrated bridge/changer fingers, Jaguar-type pickup and 23" scale (they were in the catalog until '81 as I recall, but production likely stopped in the 70's). There are a few "red headed step children" made somewhere around 1963/64 with short-scale bodies and chrome pedals, a typical Leo Fender "use everything up" procedure.
Unless the date is written in they are almost impossible to date exactly (there are some subtle early changes that can be identified, but they lack 100% consistency - another problem for vintage "screw counters", making the value difficult to pin down except as a player). Serial numbers are random and some repeats have been seen; pot codes of 1956 are found on almost every type (Fender must have bought a a ton of 1-meg pots in '56!); cables get changed around, added, and modified so much they're unreliable for dating - so it's really in overall condition and playability that the value lies, although a very early mint long-scale with a pencil date of '57 would be likely worth far more as a collector's guitar.
The rest are bought by players - and unlike other vintage Fenders, mods (added knee levers mostly) don't hurt - and sometimes increase - value. Generally, though, a stock long-scale with an added roller bridges in very good condition might bring $1000-1400 (more for a really clean one); a similar short scale (no roller bridge option - the fingers rock) will bring a couple hundred less. Most vintage guitar guides have prices and descriptions out of whack with reality.
Value really depends on who is shopping and timing. Sometimes I have a list of up to 6 or 7 players asking me to watch for them; sometimes none. Right now demand seems low - could be the economy.
Hope that helps - as noted, posting pics is really essential if he needs more accurate info.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2009 5:44 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But setting one up so that it plays smoothly and properly is bit more involved... |
Not really, IMHO. Unlike most all other pedal steels, the older model Fenders have no adjustments! You can stretch or change out the return springs, but that's it - no leverage adjustments, no timing adjustments, no pedal throw adjustments, no changer adjustments. No nothing...zip, zed, zilch.
Place the cables, snug up the turnbuckles, tune it and play it. Couldn't get much simpler or quicker. |
I did not know that. i have what i thought to be an early model 1000 and i can adjust all my pedal heights, i can adjust the tension of the cables, i can adjust the angle of the rod levers. but what i was actually refering to was cleaning and lubing the rusted shut turnbuckles, pulleys and other parts, rewiring the pots and switches, just basically making the thing playable.
maybe thats still easier than working on a sho-bud or something. i dont have alot of experience so i guess I'm in no position to say. |
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Carl Johnson
From:
Cortez, CO, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2009 3:34 pm
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Thank you guys so much for all the info. I'm embarrassed to say that I talked with my friend today and he informed me that the steel is a 1954 and it doesn't have any pedals and the body is walnut. I'm sorry for the screw-up but still would appreciate any info on the 1954 NON pedal steel.
Thanks, Carl |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2009 4:03 pm
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| Carl Johnson wrote: |
Thank you guys so much for all the info. I'm embarrassed to say that I talked with my friend today and he informed me that the steel is a 1954 and it doesn't have any pedals and the body is walnut. I'm sorry for the screw-up but still would appreciate any info on the 1954 NON pedal steel.
Thanks, Carl |
Best to ask in the Steel Without Pedals section for that info: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewforum.php?f=13
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Ben Elder
From:
La Crescenta, California, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2009 3:14 am
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And so the third-degree starts all over: Dual Professional (trapezoid pickups) or Stringmaster (two pickups per neck)?
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"Gopher, Everett?" |
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Carl Johnson
From:
Cortez, CO, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2009 4:53 am
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I'm going to take b0b's advice and move to Steel Without Pedals. Ben (or anyone else) I will be happy to continue the "3rd Degree" over there.
Carl |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2009 6:28 am
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| Quote: |
| Place the cables, snug up the turnbuckles, tune it and play it. Couldn't get much simpler or quicker. |
True.
And also as Donny said, changing the return springs is a common mod; it really helps with stiff lowers.
But there are several other things you can do - they are not required but if you go back and forth between a properly set up "stock" one and on tweaked a bit it's like night and day.
1. Remove the large pulley, dismantle it and polish the discs - and I mean to an almost-mirror finish. Then lube the assembly with Teflon lube (the dry Tri Flow is the best IMO, but the one with a bit of mineral oil and Pedro's extra dry, a similar product, are actualy a bit better - the only problem is eventual breakdown and dirt pickup, so I do this job every 6 months. It makes a huge difference - almost every large pulley is stuck if it's never been taken apart, and especially if it's never ben taken apart AND lubed with oil!
1A. Do the same thing to the small pulleys. They often do not rotate, which renders them useless. Do the same thing as with the large one. Another thing that often helps as well is installing a paper-thin nylon or other plastic washer on each side of the disc *if* there's enough room - this one is another item that can make either a subtle or big change in the feel, depending on your copedent.
2. Pull alignment - this is critical if you have an expanded setup (like Sneaky Pete's 9+2) - the cable loops rub against each other at the changer, and if they are pulling to the side slightly it causes more friction and possible hangs from time to time. I place the "L" brackets I use for barrel tuner stops (a way to get double-raises or lowers) and Delrin rods at certain points under the body to guide the cables so as many as possible are pulling relatively straight. It makes a big difference on a 400, and a HUGE difference on a 1000 because of the wide cable spread.
3. Another version of #2 can be done by using a second large pulley, leading to...
4. Turnbuckle alignment - I've seen many Fenders with the "bellcranks" (pedal rod/turnbuckle connectors) stuck flat to the frame or at odd angles. You want those pulling absolutely straight to the large pulley.
5. Actually using the multiple holes on the same levers changes the pedal travel, just as moving a rod closer/further from the body of a "normal" steel changes it. Seems like everyone uses only the outside hole (note - not all levers have multiple holes). It's a subtle change but more noticeable when you make some of the other changes.
6. Helper springs -If you have an expanded setup or one with a stiff raise, sometimes adding a "helper" spring reduces stiff pedal travel. It's a fine-tuning matter, as if you give TOO much help you won't get a fast enough...or simply enough...return. This one is easy to do and makes a big difference.
7. Rebuild the cable assemblies so no small pulleys hit each other. This is not usually an issue on a 4-pedal guitar, but when you load 'em up with a full complement of pedals (or add knee levers) you almost surely have pulleys on top of each other. This is one I'm working on with my 400, it by bit - it's a major job making new cable assemblies, but when those pulleys are not in contact with each other (or with too many cables) it makes a big difference.
All this stuff is unimportant if you just keep one around for fun, but if you play one regularly you might find the changes valuable. The short-scale I built from 2 guitars (now owned by Steve Gambrell) plays almost as light and smooth as a modern steel, and my current long-scale is getting close.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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