two knee levers simultaneously with one knee?

Barry Hyman · From: upstate New York, USA

Question: Does anybody move two knee levers at the same time with the same knee? I have found that I can (theoretically!) get some useful chords if I press left knee left (or left knee right) and left knee vertical at the same time, but it sure is difficult. Does anybody do this? Is it worth trying to get it smooth? Or is this just another one of those absurd pedal steel obsessions? I certainly have enough useful chords as it is! Thanks...

Another question: Do you set your amp really loud and barely touch the volume pedal, or do you set the amp softer and regularly floor the volume pedal? I have tried both over the years, and am curious what other steel players prefer. (Thanks again to all who respond, and to Bobby Lee and The Forum for making it possible to get answers to such questions!)
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I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

My Thomas has 2 left vertical knee levers.
I am still trying to figure out what to do with them.
What kind of theoretic chords are you getting ? Smile

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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

john widgren · From: Wilton CT

Yes.

JW

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

Barry,
I do the LKV (lowering Bs) to LKR (lowering Es) for transitions. I have the LKV change on the "0 pedal" on my MSA which should/is easier than the two knees.

On my rack, I set the amp full, and control the volume with the preamp/pod, and VP. On my NV400 I set the volume at the amp with the VP full on.

Bill
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Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!!

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

I use LKV along with LKL & LKR, but on my steel LKV modifies LKL and LKR stoppers from half to full tone up/down and doesn't pull strings on its own. Thus, LKV is quite light and no precision needed to make it do its job.

I balance volume so I can add approx. 12db (4 times) gain with the volume pedal on top of average when needed. Rarely ever add more than half that, as I normally pick light and just pick sharper if I really want to be heard.

David Doggett · Posted 9 Jun 2009 10:23 am

If hitting two levers together gives you something you want, go for it.

I set my amp to whatever volume level allows me to attack notes with my volume pedal maybe a third of the way on. I want to always be using the volume pedal in the position I am accustomed to, so the amp volume is set to give that. Thus, the amp volume setting is different for different venues - there is no one setting that works everywhere all the time. This leaves the remaining two-thirds of the pedal throw for sustain. This is the way I have observed the top pros using their volume pedal and amp.

If my volume pedal is maxed out and bumping as I try to sustain my longest notes, it means I have my amp volume set too low, or I have the wrong amp and need to use one more powerful. This is one of the main reasons steelers need an amp 2-4 times more powerful than guitar players. I have never understood steelers who play with their VP maxed out. To me, that's missing the main use of the VP.

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Yes,
I do sometimes. My setup is not common, so I won't get into chords and why.

I use LKR with LKV sometimes. I would have to practice it more to get it smoother.

I set my volume pedal to halfway and set my amp to a comfortable average setting for the room/audience. Now I can do volume swells, or feed signal to sustain a note(s). I can back off when needed.

I have a tiny amount of gain when pulled all the way back, so I can feed the tuner, if I need to.

Danny Naccarato · From: Burleson, Texas

Yes... LKR/LKV Also, I used to have the LKV on my LKL (B > Bb). Prior to moving it to the LKV, the Tele player I was working with at the time, Ronnie Crecilius, would reach down and engage the LKL when I needed it, on a particular song we did.... It was too funny. Great player and friend, no doubt Smile

Barry Hyman · From: upstate New York, USA

Thanks to all of you guys! It is such a pleasure to be able to "converse" with other steel players. (I live out in the forest where wild bears are more common than steel guitarists.) One of my obsessions is to chart out all the notes on all 12 strings for every single one of my possible pedal/knee lever combinations, and then go through the charts looking for chords and scales and grips I might have overlooked. And since I just got a beautiful new S-12 (E9) Williams (love it!!!) with my first-ever vertical knee lever, and 21 string pulls where my old MSA had just 15, I wanted to know if two knee levers with one knee was totally insane, or merely difficult. Right now I tend to lift the left side of the steel right off the floor trying to get the two KL's fully engaged, but maybe I can get used to it without launching myself off the stage!

My LKL raises both F#s to G, LKR lowers the D# and the D to C#, and LKV lowers the Bs to Bb. So there are several triads on the first, second, and fifth strings that could be played if I could master this new trick. My D pedal lowers the D# to D, so with those pulls on just those three strings alone I can get (talking open position here) B major, G major, Bm, B aug, Bb aug, D#m, F# major, Gm, D aug, C dim, G dim, and probably a few more. That's just triads -- haven't had time yet to consider more complex chords, or what I can get if I include the third, fourth, or sixth strings. And I haven't even begun to think about what is happening on the seventh, ninth, and tenth strings yet! May the Goddess of Steel protect me from popping a cerebral gasket!

As for volume pedals, thanks again, especially to Dave Doggett, who seems to provide some of the most intelligent commentary on the Forum. I usually set the amp loud and go light on the VP, but sometimes ears get bitten when I pick hard and press the vp at the same time in my enthusiasm. (And apologies to our Norwegian friend who I accused of being crazy the other day for attaching window putty to his steel. Didn't mean to be rude, brother -- all of us steel nuts are crazy, as far as I can tell!)
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I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Some steelers are just more systematic in their craziness than others - that's all Smile

I've been told that my set-up / tuning is crazy too, but it sure gives me the range and chords I want. One more pedal now and I think I'm done ... oh, and maybe one more lever on my left knee, going forward - LKF.

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Barry, I do that a lot. On my guitar (S-12) I have a verticle lever that lowers my 5th string to A#(Bb) only. I tune my 2nd string to C# but raise it to D# with my LKL which also lowers my 10th string B to A#(Bb). I have a little "pocket" that I use and just slide my left knee over and raise it at the same time when I want both pulls together. It didn't seem difficult when I first started doing it so I see no reason to change it. I split the B lowers for some chords that I have on my 8 pedal guitar....JH in Va.
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ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

That is pretty much the heart of my E69/A6/B6 Uni.
LL = E==>F
LV = F#==>G
LR = E==>Eb or D#
P1 & P2 are per Emmon's E9
RL = B==>Bb
P1 & RL = B==>C.

P1P1 ==> A6
P1P2LV ==>A7
P1P2LVLR ==>A7#5
P1P2LVLR ==>A7b5
P1P2RL ==>Am6
P1P2RLLV^ ==>Am7
P1P2RLLVLR ==>Am7b5 = 1/2 DIM 7
P1P2RLLVLL ==>Am7#5
P1P2RLLR ==>Am6b5 = DIM 7

LR ==>B6
LRP2 ==>B7
LRP2LV ==>B7#5

There are more.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

No one seems to have mentioned the other possible way to hit two levers at the same time with one knee: two levers moving the same direction, i.e. two LKLs or LKRs. If they're placed right this is easier than combining a sideways lever with a vertical.

On saxophones there's a cluster of keys grouped together, immediately adjacent to each other, to be pressed with the little finger, and there are little rollers at the edges of the keys to facilitate moving from one to the other. One of my idle thoughts is that this same roller approach could be applied to knee levers for smooth(er) movement between, say, one LKL and the other LKL singly, or both LKLs to one only, or vice versa.
***DISCLAIMER: Just something I like to imagine. Of course it's a little over the top. (Yes, yes, I know Lloyd Green does what he does with only four knee levers.)

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